Discussion:
Zero Hedge
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The Real GLOBALIST
2018-06-03 10:48:17 UTC
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https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
d***@agent.com
2018-06-07 19:06:18 UTC
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https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
The Real GLOBALIST
2018-06-07 20:23:14 UTC
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You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
d***@agent.com
2018-06-08 15:42:03 UTC
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Post by The Real GLOBALIST
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Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.

The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-09 15:07:23 UTC
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Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
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Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
islander
2018-06-09 19:56:52 UTC
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
The battle against the oppression of religion was central to Jefferson's
efforts to implement the separation of church and state. He declared
himself to be a deist, but some accuse him of being an atheist because
of his stance on this issue. He is quoted as declaring, "The legitimate
powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to
others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are
twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

I'm not quite finished with *Enlightenment Now* by Pinker, but he has
used this quote twice so far. Personally, I think that the danger is
not so much protecting religion from the government but protecting the
public from the abuses of power by religion. Our current administration
is hell bent to give religion more power.

Appointing Betsy DeVos to head the Dept. of Education is clearly on the
path to use public funds intended for education to support
indoctrination of children in religious beliefs through advocacy for a
voucher program.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-09 20:44:21 UTC
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
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Post by The Real GLOBALIST
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Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
The battle against the oppression of religion was central to Jefferson's
efforts to implement the separation of church and state. He declared
himself to be a deist, but some accuse him of being an atheist because
of his stance on this issue. He is quoted as declaring, "The legitimate
powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to
others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are
twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
I'm not quite finished with *Enlightenment Now* by Pinker, but he has
used this quote twice so far. Personally, I think that the danger is
not so much protecting religion from the government but protecting the
public from the abuses of power by religion. Our current administration
is hell bent to give religion more power.
Appointing Betsy DeVos to head the Dept. of Education is clearly on the
path to use public funds intended for education to support
indoctrination of children in religious beliefs through advocacy for a
voucher program.
Birds of a feather flock together. Power and religion
can use each other for selling themselves.
.
me
2018-06-09 21:45:23 UTC
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Hubris prevents you from recognizing the only difference between theism and atheism is a different kind of faith. Theism has been much more inspirational than yours, however. Your flock swoops less high and less far. How much has Mozart composed for socialism?
me
2018-06-09 21:35:47 UTC
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Jefferson didn’t intend government to indoctrinat anyone in religion via federal education regulation or funding. Evidently you have no problem with federal indoctrination or funding values you hold but others don’t.
b***@gmail.com
2018-06-10 00:10:23 UTC
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Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
The battle against the oppression of religion was central to Jefferson's
efforts to implement the separation of church and state. He declared
himself to be a deist, but some accuse him of being an atheist because
of his stance on this issue. He is quoted as declaring, "The legitimate
powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to
others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are
twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
I'm not quite finished with *Enlightenment Now* by Pinker, but he has
used this quote twice so far. Personally, I think that the danger is
not so much protecting religion from the government but protecting the
public from the abuses of power by religion. Our current administration
is hell bent to give religion more power.
Appointing Betsy DeVos to head the Dept. of Education is clearly on the
path to use public funds intended for education to support
indoctrination of children in religious beliefs through advocacy for a
voucher program.
Personally, I think all schools public/private should teach the basics of the world's major religions. I would have liked it when I was in school. I got an A in physics and learned electronics in military schools but never heard a thing about religion.

Christianity: 2.1 billion.
Islam: 1.3 billion.
Hinduism: 900 million.
Buddhism: 376 million.
Sikhism: 23 million.
Judaism: 14 million.
islander
2018-06-10 01:02:33 UTC
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https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
The battle against the oppression of religion was central to Jefferson's
efforts to implement the separation of church and state. He declared
himself to be a deist, but some accuse him of being an atheist because
of his stance on this issue. He is quoted as declaring, "The legitimate
powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to
others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are
twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
I'm not quite finished with *Enlightenment Now* by Pinker, but he has
used this quote twice so far. Personally, I think that the danger is
not so much protecting religion from the government but protecting the
public from the abuses of power by religion. Our current administration
is hell bent to give religion more power.
Appointing Betsy DeVos to head the Dept. of Education is clearly on the
path to use public funds intended for education to support
indoctrination of children in religious beliefs through advocacy for a
voucher program.
Personally, I think all schools public/private should teach the basics of the world's major religions. I would have liked it when I was in school. I got an A in physics and learned electronics in military schools but never heard a thing about religion.
Christianity: 2.1 billion.
Islam: 1.3 billion.
Hinduism: 900 million.
Buddhism: 376 million.
Sikhism: 23 million.
Judaism: 14 million.
Personally, I would have no problem with including a course on world
religions in K-12 schools. We get in trouble when there is
proselytizing or presenting religion as an alternative to science (as in
teaching creationism as science).
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-10 03:03:21 UTC
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Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
The battle against the oppression of religion was central to Jefferson's
efforts to implement the separation of church and state. He declared
himself to be a deist, but some accuse him of being an atheist because
of his stance on this issue. He is quoted as declaring, "The legitimate
powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to
others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are
twenty gods, or no god. It n*either picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
I'm not quite finished with *Enlightenment Now* by Pinker, but he has
used this quote twice so far. Personally, I think that the danger is
not so much protecting religion from the government but protecting the
public from the abuses of power by religion. Our current administration
is hell bent to give religion more power.
Appointing Betsy DeVos to head the Dept. of Education is clearly on the
path to use public funds intended for education to support
indoctrination of children in religious beliefs through advocacy for a
voucher program.
Personally, I think all schools public/private should teach the basics of the world's major religions. I would have liked it when I was in school. I got an A in physics and learned electronics in military schools but never heard a thing about religion.
Christianity: 2.1 billion.
Islam: 1.3 billion.
Hinduism: 900 million.
Buddhism: 376 million.
Sikhism: 23 million.
Judaism: 14 million.
Personally, I would have no problem with including a course on world
religions in K-12 schools. We get in trouble when there is
proselytizing or presenting religion as an alternative to science (as in
teaching creationism as science).
I'm sure glad I didn't have to waste my time studying
religions in school, if that's where things are going.

My mother "made me go" (or more accurately "heavily
expected me to go") to church and Sunday School in
the USA, until I rebelled and refused to go anymore at
age 15. I regard that time spent as a complete waste
of life. Before long, my mother admitted she didn't
believe all that stuff either. She had been going to
church herself maybe only once a year or so for a
long time.She had gone several times when we first
came to the USA, because as a foreigner she was
concerned with being "respectable" I guess, but that
only lasted about the first year. My foster father went
even less, probably only a half-dozen total, all in just
the first year.

I have no recollection of ever attending any church
service in England, where I was from ages zero to six.

I find it hard to understand how people could
actually believe all that stuff about "gods" and "heaven"
and "angels" and "devils". I guess there's a critical
level of conditioning and peer-pressure under which
the majority of people will believe whatever they're
told. especially if the world is a complete mystery to
them, with no science to speak of.
islander
2018-06-10 05:05:19 UTC
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https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
The battle against the oppression of religion was central to Jefferson's
efforts to implement the separation of church and state. He declared
himself to be a deist, but some accuse him of being an atheist because
of his stance on this issue. He is quoted as declaring, "The legitimate
powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to
others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are
twenty gods, or no god. It n*either picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
I'm not quite finished with *Enlightenment Now* by Pinker, but he has
used this quote twice so far. Personally, I think that the danger is
not so much protecting religion from the government but protecting the
public from the abuses of power by religion. Our current administration
is hell bent to give religion more power.
Appointing Betsy DeVos to head the Dept. of Education is clearly on the
path to use public funds intended for education to support
indoctrination of children in religious beliefs through advocacy for a
voucher program.
Personally, I think all schools public/private should teach the basics of the world's major religions. I would have liked it when I was in school. I got an A in physics and learned electronics in military schools but never heard a thing about religion.
Christianity: 2.1 billion.
Islam: 1.3 billion.
Hinduism: 900 million.
Buddhism: 376 million.
Sikhism: 23 million.
Judaism: 14 million.
Personally, I would have no problem with including a course on world
religions in K-12 schools. We get in trouble when there is
proselytizing or presenting religion as an alternative to science (as in
teaching creationism as science).
I'm sure glad I didn't have to waste my time studying
religions in school, if that's where things are going.
My mother "made me go" (or more accurately "heavily
expected me to go") to church and Sunday School in
the USA, until I rebelled and refused to go anymore at
age 15. I regard that time spent as a complete waste
of life. Before long, my mother admitted she didn't
believe all that stuff either. She had been going to
church herself maybe only once a year or so for a
long time.She had gone several times when we first
came to the USA, because as a foreigner she was
concerned with being "respectable" I guess, but that
only lasted about the first year. My foster father went
even less, probably only a half-dozen total, all in just
the first year.
I have no recollection of ever attending any church
service in England, where I was from ages zero to six.
I find it hard to understand how people could
actually believe all that stuff about "gods" and "heaven"
and "angels" and "devils". I guess there's a critical
level of conditioning and peer-pressure under which
the majority of people will believe whatever they're
told. especially if the world is a complete mystery to
them, with no science to speak of.
My experience was different. I was brought up in a fundamentalist
Christian home and was thoroughly indoctrinated as a young child. You
have no idea what that does to a child's mind. The thing that made me
rebel was when I was helping to set up an evangelist's tent and happened
to overhear the local preacher and the evangelist talking about how to
get the most money out of this congregation. The shear hypocrisy of
this was evident even to a child. So, I started asking questions and my
doubts increased. At one point I refused to go back to that church and
convinced my mother that we should attend some other churches. I
started reading about other religions. Gradually I moved away from
religion, first as an agnostic, then as a strict agnostic, and finally
as an atheist. It was a long journey, but I still read about religion
occasionally because I remain curious about how religion can enslave so
many people in their dogma. I'm still learning.

BTW, Pinker's chapter on religion is pretty good.

I wish you would read the book because I am anxious to discuss it with you.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-10 06:57:10 UTC
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https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
The battle against the oppression of religion was central to Jefferson's
efforts to implement the separation of church and state. He declared
himself to be a deist, but some accuse him of being an atheist because
of his stance on this issue. He is quoted as declaring, "The legitimate
powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to
others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are
twenty gods, or no god. It n*either picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
I'm not quite finished with *Enlightenment Now* by Pinker, but he has
used this quote twice so far. Personally, I think that the danger is
not so much protecting religion from the government but protecting the
public from the abuses of power by religion. Our current administration
is hell bent to give religion more power.
Appointing Betsy DeVos to head the Dept. of Education is clearly on the
path to use public funds intended for education to support
indoctrination of children in religious beliefs through advocacy for a
voucher program.
Personally, I think all schools public/private should teach the basics of the world's major religions. I would have liked it when I was in school. I got an A in physics and learned electronics in military schools but never heard a thing about religion.
Christianity: 2.1 billion.
Islam: 1.3 billion.
Hinduism: 900 million.
Buddhism: 376 million.
Sikhism: 23 million.
Judaism: 14 million.
Personally, I would have no problem with including a course on world
religions in K-12 schools. We get in trouble when there is
proselytizing or presenting religion as an alternative to science (as in
teaching creationism as science).
I'm sure glad I didn't have to waste my time studying
religions in school, if that's where things are going.
My mother "made me go" (or more accurately "heavily
expected me to go") to church and Sunday School in
the USA, until I rebelled and refused to go anymore at
age 15. I regard that time spent as a complete waste
of life. Before long, my mother admitted she didn't
believe all that stuff either. She had been going to
church herself maybe only once a year or so for a
long time.She had gone several times when we first
came to the USA, because as a foreigner she was
concerned with being "respectable" I guess, but that
only lasted about the first year. My foster father went
even less, probably only a half-dozen total, all in just
the first year.
I have no recollection of ever attending any church
service in England, where I was from ages zero to six.
I find it hard to understand how people could
actually believe all that stuff about "gods" and "heaven"
and "angels" and "devils". I guess there's a critical
level of conditioning and peer-pressure under which
the majority of people will believe whatever they're
told. especially if the world is a complete mystery to
them, with no science to speak of.
My experience was different. I was brought up in a fundamentalist
Christian home and was thoroughly indoctrinated as a young child. You
have no idea what that does to a child's mind. The thing that made me
rebel was when I was helping to set up an evangelist's tent and happened
to overhear the local preacher and the evangelist talking about how to
get the most money out of this congregation. The shear hypocrisy of
this was evident even to a child. So, I started asking questions and my
doubts increased. At one point I refused to go back to that church and
convinced my mother that we should attend some other churches. I
started reading about other religions. Gradually I moved away from
religion, first as an agnostic, then as a strict agnostic, and finally
as an atheist. It was a long journey, but I still read about religion
occasionally because I remain curious about how religion can enslave so
many people in their dogma. I'm still learning.
BTW, Pinker's chapter on religion is pretty good.
I wish you would read the book because I am anxious to discuss it with you.
I've started reading it and am up to page 190 so far,
about to start "chapter 13: terrorism". I don't see a
chapter entitled "religion" in the Table of Contents.


P.S. I said I had no recollection of attending any
church service in England, and that is true, but
although I only went to school in England one year,
we did have assemblies before class sometimes,
and there was a religious section to the assemblies.
Also my mom had two very good friends, a
minister and his wife, whom we used to visit
sometimes. They were in Lancashire, so it was a
bus trip and we stayed overnight. They were
very nice people. Their house was on the grounds
with the church, all in a pasture surrounded by
a curved, elevated causeway.
islander
2018-06-10 12:24:04 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
The battle against the oppression of religion was central to Jefferson's
efforts to implement the separation of church and state. He declared
himself to be a deist, but some accuse him of being an atheist because
of his stance on this issue. He is quoted as declaring, "The legitimate
powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to
others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are
twenty gods, or no god. It n*either picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
I'm not quite finished with *Enlightenment Now* by Pinker, but he has
used this quote twice so far. Personally, I think that the danger is
not so much protecting religion from the government but protecting the
public from the abuses of power by religion. Our current administration
is hell bent to give religion more power.
Appointing Betsy DeVos to head the Dept. of Education is clearly on the
path to use public funds intended for education to support
indoctrination of children in religious beliefs through advocacy for a
voucher program.
Personally, I think all schools public/private should teach the basics of the world's major religions. I would have liked it when I was in school. I got an A in physics and learned electronics in military schools but never heard a thing about religion.
Christianity: 2.1 billion.
Islam: 1.3 billion.
Hinduism: 900 million.
Buddhism: 376 million.
Sikhism: 23 million.
Judaism: 14 million.
Personally, I would have no problem with including a course on world
religions in K-12 schools. We get in trouble when there is
proselytizing or presenting religion as an alternative to science (as in
teaching creationism as science).
I'm sure glad I didn't have to waste my time studying
religions in school, if that's where things are going.
My mother "made me go" (or more accurately "heavily
expected me to go") to church and Sunday School in
the USA, until I rebelled and refused to go anymore at
age 15. I regard that time spent as a complete waste
of life. Before long, my mother admitted she didn't
believe all that stuff either. She had been going to
church herself maybe only once a year or so for a
long time.She had gone several times when we first
came to the USA, because as a foreigner she was
concerned with being "respectable" I guess, but that
only lasted about the first year. My foster father went
even less, probably only a half-dozen total, all in just
the first year.
I have no recollection of ever attending any church
service in England, where I was from ages zero to six.
I find it hard to understand how people could
actually believe all that stuff about "gods" and "heaven"
and "angels" and "devils". I guess there's a critical
level of conditioning and peer-pressure under which
the majority of people will believe whatever they're
told. especially if the world is a complete mystery to
them, with no science to speak of.
My experience was different. I was brought up in a fundamentalist
Christian home and was thoroughly indoctrinated as a young child. You
have no idea what that does to a child's mind. The thing that made me
rebel was when I was helping to set up an evangelist's tent and happened
to overhear the local preacher and the evangelist talking about how to
get the most money out of this congregation. The shear hypocrisy of
this was evident even to a child. So, I started asking questions and my
doubts increased. At one point I refused to go back to that church and
convinced my mother that we should attend some other churches. I
started reading about other religions. Gradually I moved away from
religion, first as an agnostic, then as a strict agnostic, and finally
as an atheist. It was a long journey, but I still read about religion
occasionally because I remain curious about how religion can enslave so
many people in their dogma. I'm still learning.
BTW, Pinker's chapter on religion is pretty good.
I wish you would read the book because I am anxious to discuss it with you.
I've started reading it and am up to page 190 so far,
about to start "chapter 13: terrorism". I don't see a
chapter entitled "religion" in the Table of Contents.
That would be the last chapter on "Humanism."
Post by rumpelstiltskin
P.S. I said I had no recollection of attending any
church service in England, and that is true, but
although I only went to school in England one year,
we did have assemblies before class sometimes,
and there was a religious section to the assemblies.
Also my mom had two very good friends, a
minister and his wife, whom we used to visit
sometimes. They were in Lancashire, so it was a
bus trip and we stayed overnight. They were
very nice people. Their house was on the grounds
with the church, all in a pasture surrounded by
a curved, elevated causeway.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-10 14:17:52 UTC
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<snip>
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
BTW, Pinker's chapter on religion is pretty good.
I wish you would read the book because I am anxious to discuss it with you.
I've started reading it and am up to page 190 so far,
about to start "chapter 13: terrorism". I don't see a
chapter entitled "religion" in the Table of Contents.
That would be the last chapter on "Humanism."
I never would have guessed that. I don't
associate "humanism" with "religion" at all. In
fact I see them as opposites. Humanism
constantly reassesses itself, whereas religion
creates and then imposes arbitrary, and in
practice fundamentally cruel and unjust, "rules".
Just imagine if we still lived according to the
Old Testament, punishing our disobedient
slaves by piercing their ears with auls, and
allowing fathers to have the right of life or
death over their children without society having
anything to say about it, as when Abraham was
willing to sacrifice his son on the basis of what
he thought "The Lord" was telling him.

If there's humanism in religion, it's given
as an indulgence or tolerated as a weakness.
Humanism in the secular world has evolved,
at least since slavery ended, into including
respect for individual rights as an essential
component.
islander
2018-06-10 16:00:57 UTC
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
BTW, Pinker's chapter on religion is pretty good.
I wish you would read the book because I am anxious to discuss it with you.
I've started reading it and am up to page 190 so far,
about to start "chapter 13: terrorism". I don't see a
chapter entitled "religion" in the Table of Contents.
That would be the last chapter on "Humanism."
I never would have guessed that. I don't
associate "humanism" with "religion" at all. In
fact I see them as opposites. Humanism
constantly reassesses itself, whereas religion
creates and then imposes arbitrary, and in
practice fundamentally cruel and unjust, "rules".
Just imagine if we still lived according to the
Old Testament, punishing our disobedient
slaves by piercing their ears with auls, and
allowing fathers to have the right of life or
death over their children without society having
anything to say about it, as when Abraham was
willing to sacrifice his son on the basis of what
he thought "The Lord" was telling him.
If there's humanism in religion, it's given
as an indulgence or tolerated as a weakness.
Humanism in the secular world has evolved,
at least since slavery ended, into including
respect for individual rights as an essential
component.
Pinker advocates secular humanism as an alternative to religion.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-11 00:00:37 UTC
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Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
BTW, Pinker's chapter on religion is pretty good.
I wish you would read the book because I am anxious to discuss it with you.
I've started reading it and am up to page 190 so far,
about to start "chapter 13: terrorism". I don't see a
chapter entitled "religion" in the Table of Contents.
That would be the last chapter on "Humanism."
I never would have guessed that. I don't
associate "humanism" with "religion" at all. In
fact I see them as opposites. Humanism
constantly reassesses itself, whereas religion
creates and then imposes arbitrary, and in
practice fundamentally cruel and unjust, "rules".
Just imagine if we still lived according to the
Old Testament, punishing our disobedient
slaves by piercing their ears with auls, and
allowing fathers to have the right of life or
death over their children without society having
anything to say about it, as when Abraham was
willing to sacrifice his son on the basis of what
he thought "The Lord" was telling him.
If there's humanism in religion, it's given
as an indulgence or tolerated as a weakness.
Humanism in the secular world has evolved,
at least since slavery ended, into including
respect for individual rights as an essential
component.
Pinker advocates secular humanism as an alternative to religion.
I agree with that 100%. There's far too
much poison in religions, IMV, to use them
as a foundation for anything civilized. Right
from the start, the idea of doing "good"
because one expects to receive an
exorbitant reward from some sky-monster
is not virtue or compassion at all, it's just
grubbing and scheming.
me
2018-06-10 21:05:47 UTC
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Raw Message
You call yourself a proud socialist. How do you support your contention:
“Humanism in the secular world has evolved,
at least since slavery ended, into including
respect for individual rights as an essential
component. “ in light of actual socialist results? How do you explain administering secular humanism by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and so forth? How can you actually believe that stuff you say/write?

—-
“The mind imposes an arbitrary framework called “reality,” which is quite independent of what the senses report.” – Cogitors fundamental postulate

“PSYCHOLOGY: The science of inventing words for things that do not exist.” – Erasmus

“Consciousness and logic are not reliable standards.” – Cogitors fundamental postulates
me
2018-06-10 08:22:53 UTC
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Do you really think getting the most money from your ‘congregation’ is different? What do suppose happens innion halls? Or job searches. Or tuition determinations. Or legislative budget meetings. Or taxing the rich...?
b***@gmail.com
2018-06-10 08:52:23 UTC
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Post by islander
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by islander
The battle against the oppression of religion was central to Jefferson's
efforts to implement the separation of church and state. He declared
himself to be a deist, but some accuse him of being an atheist because
of his stance on this issue. He is quoted as declaring, "The legitimate
powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to
others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are
twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
I'm not quite finished with *Enlightenment Now* by Pinker, but he has
used this quote twice so far. Personally, I think that the danger is
not so much protecting religion from the government but protecting the
public from the abuses of power by religion. Our current administration
is hell bent to give religion more power.
Appointing Betsy DeVos to head the Dept. of Education is clearly on the
path to use public funds intended for education to support
indoctrination of children in religious beliefs through advocacy for a
voucher program.
Personally, I think all schools public/private should teach the basics of the world's major religions. I would have liked it when I was in school. I got an A in physics and learned electronics in military schools but never heard a thing about religion.
Christianity: 2.1 billion.
Islam: 1.3 billion.
Hinduism: 900 million.
Buddhism: 376 million.
Sikhism: 23 million.
Judaism: 14 million.
Personally, I would have no problem with including a course on world
religions in K-12 schools. We get in trouble when there is
proselytizing or presenting religion as an alternative to science (as in
teaching creationism as science).
Yes, proselytizing is something I can't stand. Sometimes we get some jerk with a bull horn blasting his religious ideas while walking down the street at a swap meet. Meanwhile, I'm listening to a radio show and have to turn up the volume and put the radio against my ear to listen to it. I wish the police would give him a ticket. How inconsiderate to try and talk over people so they are forced to listen. But there are other nice people who just set up a table and pass out free printed material. I hesitate to take any of it since it costs money to print that stuff. When I was a kid, my father was very generous and donated all the Spanish Tile to renew the roof on the local Episcopal church. He didn't attend church very often but gave a lot of money to support it.
d***@agent.com
2018-06-11 05:44:57 UTC
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
If you want different results, you have to do something different!
You believe, like everyone else, that war is inevitable and there's
nothing you can do about it, that there's no way out. That's what
most alcoholics and addicts believe about their condition, which is
why the title "The Way Out" was under consideration for the book
"Alcoholics Anonymous", and it was rejected only because so many
other books already had that title!

There is conflict at all levels of society, top to bottom, and if the
program works for alcoholics, and has been adapted successfully
for addicts of all types, then it'll work for *anybody*!
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-11 11:45:20 UTC
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Post by d***@agent.com
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
If you want different results, you have to do something different!
You believe, like everyone else, that war is inevitable and there's
nothing you can do about it, that there's no way out. That's what
most alcoholics and addicts believe about their condition, which is
why the title "The Way Out" was under consideration for the book
"Alcoholics Anonymous", and it was rejected only because so many
other books already had that title!
I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not
"at war" and I'm happy with my "results". If you're
not happy with your results in your attempt to cure
whatever problems you're having, my sympathies,
but they're not my problems. I can't even figure out
what your problems are, and I certainly don't intend
to make them my problems.

I'm not and never have been an alcoholic or a
drug addict, if that's what this is all about. Maybe
there's a background to what you write, that took
place outside this thread, which is unrecognizable
to me because I never experienced it.
Post by d***@agent.com
There is conflict at all levels of society, top to bottom, and if the
program works for alcoholics, and has been adapted successfully
for addicts of all types, then it'll work for *anybody*!
I've never been in, or "needed", a "12-step
program". That's perhaps a problem you've had,
but I've never been there. So far at least, "I am
the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul."
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus

That is, of course, if I have any idea of what
you're talking about at all.
d***@agent.com
2018-06-11 18:07:34 UTC
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Curing one disease by swamping it with a bigger one
doesn't sound to me like much of a solution, but as long
as they stay the heck away from me (FAR away) I guess
it's no skin off my teeth.
If you want different results, you have to do something different!
You believe, like everyone else, that war is inevitable and there's
nothing you can do about it, that there's no way out. That's what
most alcoholics and addicts believe about their condition, which is
why the title "The Way Out" was under consideration for the book
"Alcoholics Anonymous", and it was rejected only because so many
other books already had that title!
I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not
"at war" and I'm happy with my "results".
The world is "at war", and has been since the beginning of history,
only punctuated by sporadic cease-fires.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
If you're
not happy with your results in your attempt to cure
whatever problems you're having, my sympathies,
but they're not my problems. I can't even figure out
what your problems are, and I certainly don't intend
to make them my problems.
I'm not and never have been an alcoholic or a
drug addict, if that's what this is all about. Maybe
there's a background to what you write, that took
place outside this thread, which is unrecognizable
to me because I never experienced it.
Post by d***@agent.com
There is conflict at all levels of society, top to bottom, and if the
program works for alcoholics, and has been adapted successfully
for addicts of all types, then it'll work for *anybody*!
I've never been in, or "needed", a "12-step
program". That's perhaps a problem you've had,
but I've never been there. So far at least, "I am
the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul."
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus
That is, of course, if I have any idea of what
you're talking about at all.
Right, most people don't need it because they're already
practicing the principles of the program! It's just the
troublemakers who need the extra help.

mg
2018-06-10 00:21:31 UTC
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Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by The Real GLOBALIST
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
You haven't given us your plan for World Peace!
Actually, I have, many times. Humans need to learn how to deal with the
Three Poisons: greed, stupidity and anger.
The primary cause of conflict is an undisciplined craving for more,
a selfishness gone wild, the same condition that afflicts alcoholics
and addicts of all types. The recovery literature says that the
solution is submission to a Higher Power, in a lifelong process of
ego deflation.
The 12-step program is not medical technology. It's all about human
nature, so it doesn't have to be changed or updated. It only fails
for people who fail to follow directions. Step 4 tells us that each
person must do his own inventory. There's plenty of blame to go
around, so the old behavior of finger pointing and playing the
blame game, a staple of politics as usual, and society in general,
top to bottom, belongs in the dustbin of history.
Wars are started by governments. So I don't think it would be
practical to try to put an entire government on a 12-step program.
Besides that, there are times when war is necessary and justifiable.
One thing that's been tried in the past is for governments to abide by
the "just war doctrine", which dates back hundreds, if not thousands,
of years, but that didn't work.

Another thing that has been tried more recently is for governments to
sign and abide by the United Nations Charter which is based, to a
large extent, on just war theory. Harry Truman signed the UN charter
in 1945 and the US became the first nation to complete the
ratification process, but the UN idea didn't work very well, either
and many nations, including the United States violate the agreement.

One thing that seems to at least partially work is to have two world
powers in competition with each other, like the US and the USSR used
to be. With that situation the two countries tend to hold each other
in check to some extent.

One idea that definitely doesn't work, of course, is to have only one
world power, with no competition, with awesome military power and a
state of the art propaganda machine, like the United States, doing
most anything it wants.
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