Discussion:
the United States is now an "oligarchy"
(too old to reply)
Werner
2015-08-02 14:52:19 UTC
Permalink
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
m***@my-deja.com
2015-08-02 18:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Carter is wiser than most. Too bad more people are not hearing it.
rumpelstiltskin
2015-08-03 00:17:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@my-deja.com
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Carter is wiser than most. Too bad more people are not hearing it.
Good old Jimmy Carter!
GLOBALIST
2015-08-02 18:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
I don't think this is a new concept in our history....
the railroad barons etc. Politicians always knew
what side their bread was buttered on.
Any of them that have lofty ideals are dependent on
the golden rule "who has the gold"
A
2015-08-02 19:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by GLOBALIST
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
I don't think this is a new concept in our history....
the railroad barons etc. Politicians always knew
what side their bread was buttered on.
Any of them that have lofty ideals are dependent on
the golden rule "who has the gold"
And you think this is fine and dandy?
--
A
GLOBALIST
2015-08-02 19:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by A
Post by GLOBALIST
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
I don't think this is a new concept in our history....
the railroad barons etc. Politicians always knew
what side their bread was buttered on.
Any of them that have lofty ideals are dependent on
the golden rule "who has the gold"
And you think this is fine and dandy?
--
A
It is what they call 'original sin'.
It is the history of mankind.
It is not how we like it to be, but
it is how it is.
I am never shocked , as you seem to always be,
by hypocrisy and folks who fail.
No one lives up to their ideals or
for damned sure no one else's ideals.
A
2015-08-02 21:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by GLOBALIST
Post by A
Post by GLOBALIST
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
I don't think this is a new concept in our history....
the railroad barons etc. Politicians always knew
what side their bread was buttered on.
Any of them that have lofty ideals are dependent on
the golden rule "who has the gold"
And you think this is fine and dandy?
--
A
It is what they call 'original sin'.
It is the history of mankind.
It is not how we like it to be, but
it is how it is.
I am never shocked , as you seem to always be,
by hypocrisy and folks who fail.
No one lives up to their ideals or
for damned sure no one else's ideals.
So your "religion" teaches you there's nothing that can be done about
the human plight and we should just give up. Gotcha.
--
A
GLOBALIST
2015-08-02 21:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by A
Post by GLOBALIST
Post by A
Post by GLOBALIST
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
I don't think this is a new concept in our history....
the railroad barons etc. Politicians always knew
what side their bread was buttered on.
Any of them that have lofty ideals are dependent on
the golden rule "who has the gold"
And you think this is fine and dandy?
--
A
It is what they call 'original sin'.
It is the history of mankind.
It is not how we like it to be, but
it is how it is.
I am never shocked , as you seem to always be,
by hypocrisy and folks who fail.
No one lives up to their ideals or
for damned sure no one else's ideals.
So your "religion" teaches you there's nothing that can be done about
the human plight and we should just give up. Gotcha.
--
A
No my religion helps me give priorities to what is really
important in life and American politics is not a priority
for me. It has been said a zillion times.."we vote
for the lesser of two evils" or as we perceive them.
A
2015-08-03 00:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by GLOBALIST
Post by A
Post by GLOBALIST
Post by A
Post by GLOBALIST
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
I don't think this is a new concept in our history....
the railroad barons etc. Politicians always knew
what side their bread was buttered on.
Any of them that have lofty ideals are dependent on
the golden rule "who has the gold"
And you think this is fine and dandy?
--
A
It is what they call 'original sin'.
It is the history of mankind.
It is not how we like it to be, but
it is how it is.
I am never shocked , as you seem to always be,
by hypocrisy and folks who fail.
No one lives up to their ideals or
for damned sure no one else's ideals.
So your "religion" teaches you there's nothing that can be done about
the human plight and we should just give up. Gotcha.
--
A
No my religion helps me give priorities to what is really
important in life and American politics is not a priority
for me. It has been said a zillion times.."we vote
for the lesser of two evils" or as we perceive them.
Right, you never discuss politics. Who do you think you're fooling, fool?
--
A
mg
2015-08-02 19:28:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
B I N G O! Finally somebody is saying it besides an obscure person
on some obscure blog, or some obscure person on some political
newsgroup. Now, Jimmy Carter is saying it.

Will it make any difference, though? I don't think so. For some
reason, or another, Americans don't really seem to care very much
about corruption and people just naturally get the kind of
government they deserve.
mg
2018-06-18 06:35:42 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".




----------------------------
Only dead fish and crooked
politicians go with the flow.
me
2018-06-18 11:01:20 UTC
Permalink
http://www.endit.info/Theft.shtml

The politically relevant fact of the matter is - Plunder is more popular than liberty.

This is the dilemma.
http://www.endit.info/Reality.shtml
Gary
2018-06-18 12:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Oligarchy -- "A political system governed by a few people."

IMHO, America has always been an oligarchy. From the days when
slave owners Washington, Jefferson et al, revolted against England --
in order to keep their slaves. To the days when the Yankee Corporate
CEOs paid Abe Lincoln to invade the South and abolish slavery. And
how about in 1941 when the CEOs decided Hitler (4,000 miles away) was
such a threat to them -- they sent 400,000 American men to Europe to
die ?

I don't refer to our elected (semi)leaders. I mean the "power behind
the throne" that puts them in office. They have always been our
ruling oligarchs.
mg
2018-06-18 22:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Oligarchy -- "A political system governed by a few people."
IMHO, America has always been an oligarchy. From the days when
slave owners Washington, Jefferson et al, revolted against England --
in order to keep their slaves. To the days when the Yankee Corporate
CEOs paid Abe Lincoln to invade the South and abolish slavery. And
how about in 1941 when the CEOs decided Hitler (4,000 miles away) was
such a threat to them -- they sent 400,000 American men to Europe to
die ?
I don't refer to our elected (semi)leaders. I mean the "power behind
the throne" that puts them in office. They have always been our
ruling oligarchs.
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
Gary
2018-06-20 14:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Oligarchy -- "A political system governed by a few people."
IMHO, America has always been an oligarchy. From the days when
slave owners Washington, Jefferson et al, revolted against England --
in order to keep their slaves. To the days when the Yankee Corporate
CEOs paid Abe Lincoln to invade the South and abolish slavery. And
how about in 1941 when the CEOs decided Hitler (4,000 miles away) was
such a threat to them -- they sent 400,000 American men to Europe to
die ?
I don't refer to our elected (semi)leaders. I mean the "power behind
the throne" that puts them in office. They have always been our
ruling oligarchs.
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
I really think it is pretty much "as it has always been". The only
changes will be because -- the CEOs have found new ways their
politicians can make them money. One thing surprises me. That is --
why have we not been in any wars of any significance lately ?

Revolution to War of 1812 = 31 years
1812 to Civil = 46 years
Civil to WW1 = 51 years
WW 1 to WW2 = 23 years
WW2 til Korea = 5 years
Korean to Vietnam = 12 years
Viet Nam til Gulf War = 15 years
Gulf War til now = 27 years

27 years ! Think of all the money our Corporate masters could have
made while a few thousand men died. I wonder what is holding them
back ?

BTW, all those war added together meant our men were fighting and
dying for a total of about 44 years of the 242 years of our American
history.
islander
2018-06-21 13:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Oligarchy -- "A political system governed by a few people."
IMHO, America has always been an oligarchy. From the days when
slave owners Washington, Jefferson et al, revolted against England --
in order to keep their slaves. To the days when the Yankee Corporate
CEOs paid Abe Lincoln to invade the South and abolish slavery. And
how about in 1941 when the CEOs decided Hitler (4,000 miles away) was
such a threat to them -- they sent 400,000 American men to Europe to
die ?
I don't refer to our elected (semi)leaders. I mean the "power behind
the throne" that puts them in office. They have always been our
ruling oligarchs.
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
I really think it is pretty much "as it has always been". The only
changes will be because -- the CEOs have found new ways their
politicians can make them money. One thing surprises me. That is --
why have we not been in any wars of any significance lately ?
Revolution to War of 1812 = 31 years
1812 to Civil = 46 years
Civil to WW1 = 51 years
WW 1 to WW2 = 23 years
WW2 til Korea = 5 years
Korean to Vietnam = 12 years
Viet Nam til Gulf War = 15 years
Gulf War til now = 27 years
27 years ! Think of all the money our Corporate masters could have
made while a few thousand men died. I wonder what is holding them
back ?
BTW, all those war added together meant our men were fighting and
dying for a total of about 44 years of the 242 years of our American
history.
Do we live in more violent times? If you listen to politicians one
would think that we are constantly at risk of catastrophe. If you
listen to most of the media, you will see an amplification of bad stuff
- "If it bleeds, it leads." Psychologists call it Availability
Heuristic, namely that we tend erroneously to evaluate things based on
recent exposure rather than to take the time to evaluate events more
broadly. https://thedecisionlab.com/bias/availability-heuristic/

What is true? Steven Pinker challenges this in *Angels of our Better
Nature" and in "Enlightenment Now." He presents a much more optimistic
view of civilization in what he calls "The Long Peace." I think that he
is correct in measuring progress. WWI and WWII were massive convulsions
with millions dying as a consequence. Even Vietnam with 58,000
Americans dead pales by comparison.

If you actually look at the data, violence world-wide is down
significantly. Politicians and the media notwithstanding, we are living
in a very good time.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/03/pinker-explains-the-long-peace/

Pinker is not without his critics, but his call to look at the data is a
very compelling argument.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-21 14:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Oligarchy -- "A political system governed by a few people."
IMHO, America has always been an oligarchy. From the days when
slave owners Washington, Jefferson et al, revolted against England --
in order to keep their slaves. To the days when the Yankee Corporate
CEOs paid Abe Lincoln to invade the South and abolish slavery. And
how about in 1941 when the CEOs decided Hitler (4,000 miles away) was
such a threat to them -- they sent 400,000 American men to Europe to
die ?
I don't refer to our elected (semi)leaders. I mean the "power behind
the throne" that puts them in office. They have always been our
ruling oligarchs.
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
I really think it is pretty much "as it has always been". The only
changes will be because -- the CEOs have found new ways their
politicians can make them money. One thing surprises me. That is --
why have we not been in any wars of any significance lately ?
Revolution to War of 1812 = 31 years
1812 to Civil = 46 years
Civil to WW1 = 51 years
WW 1 to WW2 = 23 years
WW2 til Korea = 5 years
Korean to Vietnam = 12 years
Viet Nam til Gulf War = 15 years
Gulf War til now = 27 years
27 years ! Think of all the money our Corporate masters could have
made while a few thousand men died. I wonder what is holding them
back ?
BTW, all those war added together meant our men were fighting and
dying for a total of about 44 years of the 242 years of our American
history.
Do we live in more violent times? If you listen to politicians one
would think that we are constantly at risk of catastrophe. If you
listen to most of the media, you will see an amplification of bad stuff
- "If it bleeds, it leads." Psychologists call it Availability
Heuristic, namely that we tend erroneously to evaluate things based on
recent exposure rather than to take the time to evaluate events more
broadly. https://thedecisionlab.com/bias/availability-heuristic/
What is true? Steven Pinker challenges this in *Angels of our Better
Nature" and in "Enlightenment Now." He presents a much more optimistic
view of civilization in what he calls "The Long Peace." I think that he
is correct in measuring progress. WWI and WWII were massive convulsions
with millions dying as a consequence. Even Vietnam with 58,000
Americans dead pales by comparison.
If you actually look at the data, violence world-wide is down
significantly. Politicians and the media notwithstanding, we are living
in a very good time.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/03/pinker-explains-the-long-peace/
Pinker is not without his critics, but his call to look at the data is a
very compelling argument.
"Terrorism" has a scare value beyond the numbers of
people it kills. I don't think that it's irrational of people
to react that way to it, because anybody walking down
the street, not engaging in any activity that would get
some people angry, can be struck down by it without
warning.
b***@gmail.com
2018-06-21 20:26:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Do we live in more violent times? If you listen to politicians one
would think that we are constantly at risk of catastrophe. If you
listen to most of the media, you will see an amplification of bad stuff
- "If it bleeds, it leads." Psychologists call it Availability
Heuristic, namely that we tend erroneously to evaluate things based on
recent exposure rather than to take the time to evaluate events more
broadly. https://thedecisionlab.com/bias/availability-heuristic/
What is true? Steven Pinker challenges this in *Angels of our Better
Nature" and in "Enlightenment Now." He presents a much more optimistic
view of civilization in what he calls "The Long Peace." I think that he
is correct in measuring progress. WWI and WWII were massive convulsions
with millions dying as a consequence. Even Vietnam with 58,000
Americans dead pales by comparison.
If you actually look at the data, violence world-wide is down
significantly. Politicians and the media notwithstanding, we are living
in a very good time.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/03/pinker-explains-the-long-peace/
Pinker is not without his critics, but his call to look at the data is a
very compelling argument.
"Terrorism" has a scare value beyond the numbers of
people it kills. I don't think that it's irrational of people
to react that way to it, because anybody walking down
the street, not engaging in any activity that would get
some people angry, can be struck down by it without
warning.
Recently, we had a guy walk into a restaurant, pull out a knife and started stabbing some old man (71) at a table. One of the other patrons came to his aid, struggled with the attacker and ended up killing him with his own knife. The man who was attacked survived and was taken to a hospital. Now, that's justice in my book.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-22 02:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Do we live in more violent times? If you listen to politicians one
would think that we are constantly at risk of catastrophe. If you
listen to most of the media, you will see an amplification of bad stuff
- "If it bleeds, it leads." Psychologists call it Availability
Heuristic, namely that we tend erroneously to evaluate things based on
recent exposure rather than to take the time to evaluate events more
broadly. https://thedecisionlab.com/bias/availability-heuristic/
What is true? Steven Pinker challenges this in *Angels of our Better
Nature" and in "Enlightenment Now." He presents a much more optimistic
view of civilization in what he calls "The Long Peace." I think that he
is correct in measuring progress. WWI and WWII were massive convulsions
with millions dying as a consequence. Even Vietnam with 58,000
Americans dead pales by comparison.
If you actually look at the data, violence world-wide is down
significantly. Politicians and the media notwithstanding, we are living
in a very good time.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/03/pinker-explains-the-long-peace/
Pinker is not without his critics, but his call to look at the data is a
very compelling argument.
"Terrorism" has a scare value beyond the numbers of
people it kills. I don't think that it's irrational of people
to react that way to it, because anybody walking down
the street, not engaging in any activity that would get
some people angry, can be struck down by it without
warning.
Recently, we had a guy walk into a restaurant, pull out a knife and started stabbing some old man (71) at a table. One of the other patrons came to his aid, struggled with the attacker and ended up killing him with his own knife. The man who was attacked survived and was taken to a hospital. Now, that's justice in my book.
In my book too. I take stupid chances sometimes. Twice in
the last couple of years I've confronted street people half my age
or less who were shouting obscenities in the street at night. I did
get them to go away, but of course I might have gotten knifed
instead. There's an alleyway between my building and the one
west of it, which has a locked gate but the gate is up seven or
eight stone steps. There was a street person last night lying
down on the steps with all his crap around him. I went up to
him and told him this is a nice neighborhood and I don't want it
turned into a slum. He did pick up his stuff and go away, but
that could have ended differently too, though if he'd looked
really dangerous of course I wouldn't have confronted him
directly. This morning as I was walking up Castro, there was a
very young guy sitting almost in the middle of the sidewalk. I
told him he should pick one side or the other. I moved on but I
looked back and he was still in the same place. San Francisco
has a reputation for tolerance, but people including myself are
getting really tired of the vagrant types. I was a vagrant
myself in Europe in 1972, but I didn't sleep in people's doorways.
5,000 of us slept in sleeping bags in the Vondelpark that summer.
That was the big hippie year for Amsterdam, but everybody was
polite and considerate of the locals, unlike what's been going
on here lately, or so it seems to me.

Those were admittedly isolated instances. Mostly the street
people are reasonably discreet, thought they are in general
uglier, it seems to me, than we were in 1972 in Amsterdam.
Not all of them though - the guy in the middle of the sidewalk
this morning was cute.
Gary
2018-06-21 17:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by mg
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
I really think it is pretty much "as it has always been". The only
changes will be because -- the CEOs have found new ways their
politicians can make them money. One thing surprises me. That is --
why have we not been in any wars of any significance lately ?
Revolution to War of 1812 = 31 years
1812 to Civil = 46 years
Civil to WW1 = 51 years
WW 1 to WW2 = 23 years
WW2 til Korea = 5 years
Korean to Vietnam = 12 years
Viet Nam til Gulf War = 15 years
Gulf War til now = 27 years
27 years ! Think of all the money our Corporate masters could have
made while a few thousand men died. I wonder what is holding them
back ?
BTW, all those war added together meant our men were fighting and
dying for a total of about 44 years of the 242 years of our American
history.
Do we live in more violent times? If you listen to politicians one
would think that we are constantly at risk of catastrophe. If you
listen to most of the media, you will see an amplification of bad stuff
- "If it bleeds, it leads." Psychologists call it Availability
Heuristic, namely that we tend erroneously to evaluate things based on
recent exposure rather than to take the time to evaluate events more
broadly. https://thedecisionlab.com/bias/availability-heuristic/
“...if I can remember it easily, It must be important...”

This is an interesting article. It made me think about how things
seem to me on a personal level. I really do think our country (local
and national) has far less violence than when I was young -- in the
South -- in the 1950s. And I'm not referring to the criminal violence
(committed in the acts of a crime). I refer to the violent acts
committed by neighbors -- one against the other. Like when Mr. Jones
beats the hell out of Mr. Smith because Smith told Jones' boy not to
hunt on his land. Or the time Uncle Joe cut Bill Johnson up because
Bill flirted with Joe's sister.
Post by islander
What is true? Steven Pinker challenges this in *Angels of our Better
Nature" and in "Enlightenment Now." He presents a much more optimistic
view of civilization in what he calls "The Long Peace." I think that he
is correct in measuring progress. WWI and WWII were massive convulsions
with millions dying as a consequence. Even Vietnam with 58,000
Americans dead pales by comparison.
If you actually look at the data, violence world-wide is down
significantly. Politicians and the media notwithstanding, we are living
in a very good time.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/03/pinker-explains-the-long-peace/
Pinker is not without his critics, but his call to look at the data is a
very compelling argument.
"...Violence may seem to be wherever we look, but the perception that
we live in violent times is wrong..."

I don't see or hear of very much local violence these days. Maybe
it's because I'm not close to any young men in my area. But I really
don't think average people are as violent as they were 50 or 60 years
ago. (and before)
mg
2018-06-22 16:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Oligarchy -- "A political system governed by a few people."
IMHO, America has always been an oligarchy. From the days when
slave owners Washington, Jefferson et al, revolted against England --
in order to keep their slaves. To the days when the Yankee Corporate
CEOs paid Abe Lincoln to invade the South and abolish slavery. And
how about in 1941 when the CEOs decided Hitler (4,000 miles away) was
such a threat to them -- they sent 400,000 American men to Europe to
die ?
I don't refer to our elected (semi)leaders. I mean the "power behind
the throne" that puts them in office. They have always been our
ruling oligarchs.
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
I really think it is pretty much "as it has always been". The only
changes will be because -- the CEOs have found new ways their
politicians can make them money. One thing surprises me. That is --
why have we not been in any wars of any significance lately ?
Revolution to War of 1812 = 31 years
1812 to Civil = 46 years
Civil to WW1 = 51 years
WW 1 to WW2 = 23 years
WW2 til Korea = 5 years
Korean to Vietnam = 12 years
Viet Nam til Gulf War = 15 years
Gulf War til now = 27 years
27 years ! Think of all the money our Corporate masters could have
made while a few thousand men died. I wonder what is holding them
back ?
BTW, all those war added together meant our men were fighting and
dying for a total of about 44 years of the 242 years of our American
history.
I just asked that question sort of off the cuff. So, I've never really
thought very much about the differences between then and now. Now that
I think about it, though, I think it's a great question. I doubt if
anybody would ever get any awards, or a star on the forehead for an
answer to a question this newsgroup, but now I'm thinking that maybe I
ought to get something for asking a good question. :-) Actually, I
don't think there's much chance of that. :-)

I need to take some time and think about an answer to my question,
though. Then, I'll probably post it as a separate thread. Right now,
I'm up to my ears in yard work and doing computer work for friends and
relatives. Actually, I don't do a lot of that, anymore. It seems like
most people use cell phones instead of computers, but I still do a
significant amount of (free) computer work for people as a hobby.

In regard to wars being an indication of corruption, incidentally, I
agree that they can be and I think they have been for the last 15
years, or so, but they're not always an indication and they're not the
only indication of corruption. There are many others. I, personally,
wouldn't consider WWI, WWII, the Korean War, or even Vietnam, an
indication of a high level of corruption, for instance.

I do think that wars an be an indication of a high level of
corruption, by the way, when they are not really fought for in defense
of a real threat, and are in violation of international law and/or
not approved by congress.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-22 16:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Oligarchy -- "A political system governed by a few people."
IMHO, America has always been an oligarchy. From the days when
slave owners Washington, Jefferson et al, revolted against England --
in order to keep their slaves. To the days when the Yankee Corporate
CEOs paid Abe Lincoln to invade the South and abolish slavery. And
how about in 1941 when the CEOs decided Hitler (4,000 miles away) was
such a threat to them -- they sent 400,000 American men to Europe to
die ?
I don't refer to our elected (semi)leaders. I mean the "power behind
the throne" that puts them in office. They have always been our
ruling oligarchs.
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
I really think it is pretty much "as it has always been". The only
changes will be because -- the CEOs have found new ways their
politicians can make them money. One thing surprises me. That is --
why have we not been in any wars of any significance lately ?
Revolution to War of 1812 = 31 years
1812 to Civil = 46 years
Civil to WW1 = 51 years
WW 1 to WW2 = 23 years
WW2 til Korea = 5 years
Korean to Vietnam = 12 years
Viet Nam til Gulf War = 15 years
Gulf War til now = 27 years
27 years ! Think of all the money our Corporate masters could have
made while a few thousand men died. I wonder what is holding them
back ?
BTW, all those war added together meant our men were fighting and
dying for a total of about 44 years of the 242 years of our American
history.
I just asked that question sort of off the cuff. So, I've never really
thought very much about the differences between then and now. Now that
I think about it, though, I think it's a great question. I doubt if
anybody would ever get any awards, or a star on the forehead for an
answer to a question this newsgroup, but now I'm thinking that maybe I
ought to get something for asking a good question. :-) Actually, I
don't think there's much chance of that. :-)
I need to take some time and think about an answer to my question,
though. Then, I'll probably post it as a separate thread. Right now,
I'm up to my ears in yard work and doing computer work for friends and
relatives. Actually, I don't do a lot of that, anymore. It seems like
most people use cell phones instead of computers, but I still do a
significant amount of (free) computer work for people as a hobby.
In regard to wars being an indication of corruption, incidentally, I
agree that they can be and I think they have been for the last 15
years, or so, but they're not always an indication and they're not the
only indication of corruption. There are many others. I, personally,
wouldn't consider WWI, WWII, the Korean War, or even Vietnam, an
indication of a high level of corruption, for instance.
I do think that wars an be an indication of a high level of
corruption, by the way, when they are not really fought for in defense
of a real threat, and are in violation of international law and/or
not approved by congress.
You can't really count the 27 years since the gulf war as
"peace", IMO, because we've had troops in Afghanistan
constantly during that time.
mg
2018-06-23 03:15:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Oligarchy -- "A political system governed by a few people."
IMHO, America has always been an oligarchy. From the days when
slave owners Washington, Jefferson et al, revolted against England --
in order to keep their slaves. To the days when the Yankee Corporate
CEOs paid Abe Lincoln to invade the South and abolish slavery. And
how about in 1941 when the CEOs decided Hitler (4,000 miles away) was
such a threat to them -- they sent 400,000 American men to Europe to
die ?
I don't refer to our elected (semi)leaders. I mean the "power behind
the throne" that puts them in office. They have always been our
ruling oligarchs.
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
I really think it is pretty much "as it has always been". The only
changes will be because -- the CEOs have found new ways their
politicians can make them money. One thing surprises me. That is --
why have we not been in any wars of any significance lately ?
Revolution to War of 1812 = 31 years
1812 to Civil = 46 years
Civil to WW1 = 51 years
WW 1 to WW2 = 23 years
WW2 til Korea = 5 years
Korean to Vietnam = 12 years
Viet Nam til Gulf War = 15 years
Gulf War til now = 27 years
27 years ! Think of all the money our Corporate masters could have
made while a few thousand men died. I wonder what is holding them
back ?
BTW, all those war added together meant our men were fighting and
dying for a total of about 44 years of the 242 years of our American
history.
I just asked that question sort of off the cuff. So, I've never really
thought very much about the differences between then and now. Now that
I think about it, though, I think it's a great question. I doubt if
anybody would ever get any awards, or a star on the forehead for an
answer to a question this newsgroup, but now I'm thinking that maybe I
ought to get something for asking a good question. :-) Actually, I
don't think there's much chance of that. :-)
I need to take some time and think about an answer to my question,
though. Then, I'll probably post it as a separate thread. Right now,
I'm up to my ears in yard work and doing computer work for friends and
relatives. Actually, I don't do a lot of that, anymore. It seems like
most people use cell phones instead of computers, but I still do a
significant amount of (free) computer work for people as a hobby.
In regard to wars being an indication of corruption, incidentally, I
agree that they can be and I think they have been for the last 15
years, or so, but they're not always an indication and they're not the
only indication of corruption. There are many others. I, personally,
wouldn't consider WWI, WWII, the Korean War, or even Vietnam, an
indication of a high level of corruption, for instance.
I do think that wars an be an indication of a high level of
corruption, by the way, when they are not really fought for in defense
of a real threat, and are in violation of international law and/or
not approved by congress.
You can't really count the 27 years since the gulf war as
"peace", IMO, because we've had troops in Afghanistan
constantly during that time.
Yes, indeed and the cost in blood and treasure has been horrendous,
including the senseless war in Afghanistan and the tragic loss of one
of my grandsons. My only point was that war may, or may not be an
indication of government corruption, depending on the circumstances.
Gary
2018-06-23 11:48:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
I just asked that question sort of off the cuff. So, I've never really
thought very much about the differences between then and now. Now that
I think about it, though, I think it's a great question. I doubt if
anybody would ever get any awards, or a star on the forehead for an
answer to a question this newsgroup, but now I'm thinking that maybe I
ought to get something for asking a good question. :-) Actually, I
don't think there's much chance of that. :-)
I need to take some time and think about an answer to my question,
though. Then, I'll probably post it as a separate thread. Right now,
I'm up to my ears in yard work and doing computer work for friends and
relatives. Actually, I don't do a lot of that, anymore. It seems like
most people use cell phones instead of computers, but I still do a
significant amount of (free) computer work for people as a hobby.
In regard to wars being an indication of corruption, incidentally, I
agree that they can be and I think they have been for the last 15
years, or so, but they're not always an indication and they're not the
only indication of corruption. There are many others. I, personally,
wouldn't consider WWI, WWII, the Korean War, or even Vietnam, an
indication of a high level of corruption, for instance.
I do think that wars an be an indication of a high level of
corruption, by the way, when they are not really fought for in defense
of a real threat, and are in violation of international law and/or
not approved by congress.
You can't really count the 27 years since the gulf war as
"peace", IMO, because we've had troops in Afghanistan
constantly during that time.
Yes, indeed and the cost in blood and treasure has been horrendous,
including the senseless war in Afghanistan and the tragic loss of one
of my grandsons. My only point was that war may, or may not be an
indication of government corruption, depending on the circumstances.
I'm sorry to hear you lost a grandson. The last close relative I
lost in war was -- my father in WW2. When I was young, it seemed
almost all the men I was related to -- or came in contact with -- had
served in the military. Right now -- I know of only one. My wife's
niece's son.
Randy Senior
2018-06-22 17:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
I really think it is pretty much "as it has always been". The only
changes will be because -- the CEOs have found new ways their
politicians can make them money. One thing surprises me. That is --
why have we not been in any wars of any significance lately ?
Revolution to War of 1812 = 31 years
1812 to Civil = 46 years
Civil to WW1 = 51 years
WW 1 to WW2 = 23 years
WW2 til Korea = 5 years
Korean to Vietnam = 12 years
Viet Nam til Gulf War = 15 years
Gulf War til now = 27 years
27 years ! Think of all the money our Corporate masters could have
made while a few thousand men died. I wonder what is holding them
back ?
BTW, all those war added together meant our men were fighting and
dying for a total of about 44 years of the 242 years of our American
history.
I just asked that question sort of off the cuff. So, I've never really
thought very much about the differences between then and now. Now that
I think about it, though, I think it's a great question. I doubt if
anybody would ever get any awards, or a star on the forehead for an
answer to a question this newsgroup, but now I'm thinking that maybe I
ought to get something for asking a good question. :-) Actually, I
don't think there's much chance of that. :-)
I hope you'll pardon my occasional ramblings. I do love history, and
any chance I get to weave some into a news group post -- I do it.
Post by mg
I need to take some time and think about an answer to my question,
though. Then, I'll probably post it as a separate thread. Right now,
I'm up to my ears in yard work and doing computer work for friends and
relatives. Actually, I don't do a lot of that, anymore. It seems like
most people use cell phones instead of computers, but I still do a
significant amount of (free) computer work for people as a hobby.
My wife and I both have a cell phone. Which we keep just
in case of an emergency. But neither of us ever use them. I think
the last time I used mine was to test it -- about a year ago.
Post by mg
In regard to wars being an indication of corruption, incidentally, I
agree that they can be and I think they have been for the last 15
years, or so, but they're not always an indication and they're not the
only indication of corruption. There are many others.
I think the corruption takes place in different ways than it did 100
years ago. The POWER knows that the average boobus-Americanus is
much smarter about the ways of the world than his grandparents were.
So they are much more careful and devious as to how they accumulate
their wealth (at our expense).
Post by mg
I, personally,
wouldn't consider WWI, WWII, the Korean War, or even Vietnam, an
indication of a high level of corruption, for instance.
I do think that wars an be an indication of a high level of
corruption, by the way, when they are not really fought for in defense
of a real threat, and are in violation of international law and/or
not approved by congress.
You mean like when they sent men almost 10,000 miles to fight and die
in Korea and Vietnam -- because they were a such a threat to the
American people :-)
mg
2018-06-23 14:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Senior
Post by mg
Post by Gary
Post by mg
The question is whether or not the current situation with corruption
is simply governmnt as usual, as it has always been, or whether we are
experiencing something new which is much, much worse than ever before.
I really think it is pretty much "as it has always been". The only
changes will be because -- the CEOs have found new ways their
politicians can make them money. One thing surprises me. That is --
why have we not been in any wars of any significance lately ?
Revolution to War of 1812 = 31 years
1812 to Civil = 46 years
Civil to WW1 = 51 years
WW 1 to WW2 = 23 years
WW2 til Korea = 5 years
Korean to Vietnam = 12 years
Viet Nam til Gulf War = 15 years
Gulf War til now = 27 years
27 years ! Think of all the money our Corporate masters could have
made while a few thousand men died. I wonder what is holding them
back ?
BTW, all those war added together meant our men were fighting and
dying for a total of about 44 years of the 242 years of our American
history.
I just asked that question sort of off the cuff. So, I've never really
thought very much about the differences between then and now. Now that
I think about it, though, I think it's a great question. I doubt if
anybody would ever get any awards, or a star on the forehead for an
answer to a question this newsgroup, but now I'm thinking that maybe I
ought to get something for asking a good question. :-) Actually, I
don't think there's much chance of that. :-)
I hope you'll pardon my occasional ramblings.
I've been known to do the same thing.
Post by Randy Senior
I do love history, and
any chance I get to weave some into a news group post -- I do it.
Post by mg
I need to take some time and think about an answer to my question,
though. Then, I'll probably post it as a separate thread. Right now,
I'm up to my ears in yard work and doing computer work for friends and
relatives. Actually, I don't do a lot of that, anymore. It seems like
most people use cell phones instead of computers, but I still do a
significant amount of (free) computer work for people as a hobby.
My wife and I both have a cell phone. Which we keep just
in case of an emergency. But neither of us ever use them. I think
the last time I used mine was to test it -- about a year ago.
Post by mg
In regard to wars being an indication of corruption, incidentally, I
agree that they can be and I think they have been for the last 15
years, or so, but they're not always an indication and they're not the
only indication of corruption. There are many others.
I think the corruption takes place in different ways than it did 100
years ago. The POWER knows that the average boobus-Americanus is
much smarter about the ways of the world than his grandparents were.
So they are much more careful and devious as to how they accumulate
their wealth (at our expense).
Post by mg
I, personally,
wouldn't consider WWI, WWII, the Korean War, or even Vietnam, an
indication of a high level of corruption, for instance.
I do think that wars an be an indication of a high level of
corruption, by the way, when they are not really fought for in defense
of a real threat, and are in violation of international law and/or
not approved by congress.
You mean like when they sent men almost 10,000 miles to fight and die
in Korea and Vietnam -- because they were a such a threat to the
American people :-)
It's not easy to categorize the situations with Vietnam and North
Korea. With the Vietnam war, on the one hand, Johnson lied to get us
into that war, but on the other hand congress did approve and there
was no violation of international law. In the case of the Korean war,
there was no violation of international law, but Truman failed to get
approval from Congress. So, it's not an easy decision, but my
knee-jerk opinion is that these two wars indicate business-as-usual
corruption, but doesn't rise to the exceptional level of corruption
like we have today.

As I recall, Bill Clinton didn't get Congressional approval for the
war in Kosovo, either, btw.

El Castor
2018-06-18 18:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
mg
2018-06-18 22:03:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:24:58 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
I don't think there is a solution other than educating the public and
continuing to elect non-establishment candidates like Donald Trump and
I'm not even sure that would work. Some of the things on my solutions
wish list, though, would be:

1. Eliminate all income-tax funded retirement benefits for all
politicians, for life, including health care benefits and secret
service protection, if applicable, for any politician, or their
spouse, who makes more than 10 times more in any year, adjusted for
inflation, than they made before they became politicians.

2. Make the income tax system more progressive. Eliminate the Reagan
and Clinton taxes on Social Security and eliminate the automatic
deduction of taxes for tips for waitresses. Reinstate income averaging
and the deduction for consumer loans. Make all medical bills
deductible. Add about 5 tax brackets in the income range between a few
hundred thousand and hundreds of millions of dollars.

3. Eliminate the cap on Social Security and increase the
employer/employee contribution amount to insure that the program can
repay promised benefits after the trust fund is depleted. Don't make
any social engineering, or income transfer types of changes to the
program.

4. Replace the money that Obama took from Medicare and eliminate
Obamacare and the taxes and fees levied to pay for it and establish a
national healthcare system based on Medicare for all. Remove all
artificial limitations, or quotas, on the number of doctors and allow
anyone who wants to be a doctor, and is qualified to be a doctor,
become a doctor. Make it illegal for doctors to become "entrepreneurs"
by investing in medical equipment and then arranging for patient tests
on their equipment. Make any sort of a kick-back arrangement by
medical professionals illegal.

5. Require a formal declaration of war before taking military action
against another country and require strict compliance with the UN
Charter. Modify the constitution, if necessary to limit a president's
power to make war without the formal consent of Congress. Make it
illegal to do in the U.S. what we hanged Nazis at Nuremberg for doing.

6. George Bush "unsigned" the International Criminal Court (ICC) war
crimes treaty. Amend the law/constitution to require that the US
belongs to the ICC and/or make it difficult to withdraw.

7. Completely rescind Bill Clinton's Financial Services Modernization
Act.

8. Completely rescind Bill Clinton's Telecommunications Act which
allowed giant media corporations to increase their monopoly power and
break up the large media conglomerates. Require all news media to
clearly differentiate between editorial content and news and label
editorial material appropriately.

9. Eliminate the loopholes, including super delegates that allow
political parties to engage in fraudulent practices.

10. Implement a referendum system for the federal government similar
to the California system.

11. Implement a nonpartisan blanket primary for the federal government
similar to the California system.

12. Implement laws that encourage employers to give a fair share of
productivity gains to employees.

13. Expand the CBO, beginning with Bill Clinton's NAFTA agreement, to
include the responsibility of examining our trade practices and
agreements every few years to make sure that other countries aren't
cheating and to make sure we are competing on a level playing field
and provide a public report.

14. Make fast-track trade agreements illegal (or unconstitutional).

15. Expand the CBO to include the responsibility of examining U.S.
sanctions against other countries to determine how many innocent
civilians are dying or being injured as a result of the sanctions and
provide a public report.

16. Expand the CBO to monitor all the government intelligence agencies
to insure that they are obeying all relevant laws that they are being
truthful and that the executive branch is not wrongfully misleading
the public.

17. Eliminate corruption. Expand the CBO to provide periodic reports
to congress and the public and provide recommendations on how to
eliminate corruption and/or the perception of corruption

18. Create a new law that doesn't permit any tax cuts, except in a
national emergency, when the US is producing deficits beyond a certain
limit, e.g.: 25% of GDP. Automatically rescind all tax cuts going back
50 years when deficits exceed 50% of GDP. Automatically cut military
spending (in peace time) if deficits exceed 75% of GDP.

19. Rescind all immigration laws created after 1964 and return to the
laws in force before 1965. Reduce immigration to 50,000 emigrants per
year until the population reaches a sustainable level. Allow temporary
worker visas for farm workers only, or employers who have a truly
critical labor shortage and critical national defense purposes.
Shortages to be certified by the Congressional Budget Office.

20. Send the anchor baby law to SCOTUS for formal interpretation. If
necessary modify the constitution to exclude illegal immigrants.

21. Eliminate the federal school loan program and replace it with a
cost sharing program with the states and require that tuition charges
in public school be at a reasonable low level in order for the states
to qualify. At Utah Valley University (UVU), for instance, tuition is
$2271 per semester, plus $364 for fees.

22. Implement term limits.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-19 01:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:24:58 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
I don't think there is a solution other than educating the public and
continuing to elect non-establishment candidates like Donald Trump and
I'm not even sure that would work. Some of the things on my solutions
Adam Smith was certainly no fan of oligarchy. He was
acutely aware of its unsavouriness, and left most of his
own fortune to help the poor. He was just describing the
way things work, like the inevitability of having to go to
the bathroom and use toilet paper as a necessity for
sustaining life, things being the way they are in this
"best of all possible worlds" as some people like to call
this world.

Nobody would argue that one should avoid going to
the bathroom because one would rather not. Just
because something is necessary doesn't mean it's
the best of all imaginable things.

It's often noted that particular quotation from Adam
Smith is the one most frequently picked off to try to
distort his views by those who don't wish the best for
the human race.


<snip>
mg
2018-06-19 17:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:24:58 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
I don't think there is a solution other than educating the public and
continuing to elect non-establishment candidates like Donald Trump and
I'm not even sure that would work. Some of the things on my solutions
Adam Smith was certainly no fan of oligarchy. He was
acutely aware of its unsavouriness, and left most of his
own fortune to help the poor. He was just describing the
way things work, like the inevitability of having to go to
the bathroom and use toilet paper as a necessity for
sustaining life, things being the way they are in this
"best of all possible worlds" as some people like to call
this world.
Nobody would argue that one should avoid going to
the bathroom because one would rather not. Just
because something is necessary doesn't mean it's
the best of all imaginable things.
It's often noted that particular quotation from Adam
Smith is the one most frequently picked off to try to
distort his views by those who don't wish the best for
the human race.
<snip>
I've never actually read anything much about Adam Smith. I think you
might have said something once remarking that reading old poets is
more useful than reading old philosophers and I think that probably
applies to old economists, as well.

From what little I do know, though, I think part of Adam Smith's
popularity arises from his invisible hand quote that seems to imply
that regulation isn't necessary. As for me, I wish he had said
something memorable like that about the value of competition because,
as a man who I have great affection for (me), once said: "Companies
react to competition like Dracula reacts to the crucifix and garlic".
rumpelstiltskin
2018-06-19 21:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:24:58 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
I don't think there is a solution other than educating the public and
continuing to elect non-establishment candidates like Donald Trump and
I'm not even sure that would work. Some of the things on my solutions
Adam Smith was certainly no fan of oligarchy. He was
acutely aware of its unsavouriness, and left most of his
own fortune to help the poor. He was just describing the
way things work, like the inevitability of having to go to
the bathroom and use toilet paper as a necessity for
sustaining life, things being the way they are in this
"best of all possible worlds" as some people like to call
this world.
Nobody would argue that one should avoid going to
the bathroom because one would rather not. Just
because something is necessary doesn't mean it's
the best of all imaginable things.
It's often noted that particular quotation from Adam
Smith is the one most frequently picked off to try to
distort his views by those who don't wish the best for
the human race.
<snip>
I've never actually read anything much about Adam Smith. I think you
might have said something once remarking that reading old poets is
more useful than reading old philosophers and I think that probably
applies to old economists, as well.
I don't recall saying that reading old poets is more useful than
reading old philosophers. I don't necessarily disagree with the
sentiment, and perhaps I did say it. I just don't remember
explicitly saying it.
Post by mg
From what little I do know, though, I think part of Adam Smith's
popularity arises from his invisible hand quote that seems to imply
that regulation isn't necessary.
I don't think it implies that at all. It does say that
"selfishness" is a great motivator, and many good things can
flow from making use of it (as long as society watches
where it's going). Adam Smith was also an advocate of
progressive taxation though. He said that it was not
unreasonable to ask that those who benefit most from the
social order should pay into supporting humanity not merely
in proportion, but something more than that. As noted too,
he himself left most of the fortune he had accumulated,
because of his fame and the respect he had earned, to
alleviating the suffering of those who had not profited as
much from the social order as he himself had.

The "Invisible Hand" analogy is a very good one. It's
too bad that its meaning has been so polluted by people
not of the same order as Smith himself.
Post by mg
As for me, I wish he had said
something memorable like that about the value of competition because,
as a man who I have great affection for (me), once said: "Companies
react to competition like Dracula reacts to the crucifix and garlic".
That's a reason of course that societies need governmental
oversight and regulation. Without that, you end up with the
"two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner"
situation.
mg
2018-06-20 09:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:24:58 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
I don't think there is a solution other than educating the public and
continuing to elect non-establishment candidates like Donald Trump and
I'm not even sure that would work. Some of the things on my solutions
Adam Smith was certainly no fan of oligarchy. He was
acutely aware of its unsavouriness, and left most of his
own fortune to help the poor. He was just describing the
way things work, like the inevitability of having to go to
the bathroom and use toilet paper as a necessity for
sustaining life, things being the way they are in this
"best of all possible worlds" as some people like to call
this world.
Nobody would argue that one should avoid going to
the bathroom because one would rather not. Just
because something is necessary doesn't mean it's
the best of all imaginable things.
It's often noted that particular quotation from Adam
Smith is the one most frequently picked off to try to
distort his views by those who don't wish the best for
the human race.
<snip>
I've never actually read anything much about Adam Smith. I think you
might have said something once remarking that reading old poets is
more useful than reading old philosophers and I think that probably
applies to old economists, as well.
I don't recall saying that reading old poets is more useful than
reading old philosophers. I don't necessarily disagree with the
sentiment, and perhaps I did say it. I just don't remember
explicitly saying it.
I probably got that somewhere else. I don't really trust my memory,
anymore.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
From what little I do know, though, I think part of Adam Smith's
popularity arises from his invisible hand quote that seems to imply
that regulation isn't necessary.
I don't think it implies that at all. It does say that
"selfishness" is a great motivator, and many good things can
flow from making use of it (as long as society watches
where it's going). Adam Smith was also an advocate of
progressive taxation though. He said that it was not
unreasonable to ask that those who benefit most from the
social order should pay into supporting humanity not merely
in proportion, but something more than that.
My philosophy with taxes is that the pain should be equalized for
everybody to the extent humanly possible. Or, to put it another way,
if a poor person's tax rate is so high that he has to go hungry to pay
them, the tax rate on a rich person should also be high enough that he
has to go hungry, also.

In practice, however, it seems that politicians impose regressive
taxes every chance they get. Telephone bills, for instance have all
sorts of regressive taxes on them. A waitress with a cell phone,
supporting her children, for instance, would pay the same cell-phone
tax rate as a billionaire. One extremely regressive tax is sales tax.
The only states that don't have sales taxes are:

Alaska
Delaware
Montana
New Hampshire
Oregon

In other states, the sales tax ranges from 7.5% in California to 2.9%
in Colorado and local counties, cities and municipalities add on more
sales taxes. Then there are the excise taxes and the sin taxes. I know
somebody who used to smoke roll-your-own cigarettes years ago. When
Obama was elected president, one of the first things he did was put a
tax of about 300% on loose tobacco. His cost for a bag of tobacco went
from about $8 to about $24, as I recall. Then there was Obama's
proposed oil/gasoline, Global-Warming tax which would have been very
large and very regressive if it had passed.

Europe's VAT taxes are extremely regressive, even though European
governments are mostly very liberal, I think, or are supposed to be.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
As noted too,
he himself left most of the fortune he had accumulated,
because of his fame and the respect he had earned, to
alleviating the suffering of those who had not profited as
much from the social order as he himself had.
The "Invisible Hand" analogy is a very good one. It's
too bad that its meaning has been so polluted by people
not of the same order as Smith himself.
Post by mg
As for me, I wish he had said
something memorable like that about the value of competition because,
as a man who I have great affection for (me), once said: "Companies
react to competition like Dracula reacts to the crucifix and garlic".
That's a reason of course that societies need governmental
oversight and regulation. Without that, you end up with the
"two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner"
situation.
The Bill of Rights, of course, provides a lot of protection to the
lamb in that scenario. In addition, I suppose that one could consider
anti-trust laws, for instance, as protection for the lamb, but I'm not
sure how effective they are now days. Take for example, what Bill
Clinton did in deregulating banks and the news media.
b***@gmail.com
2018-06-21 16:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I don't recall saying that reading old poets is more useful than
reading old philosophers. I don't necessarily disagree with the
sentiment, and perhaps I did say it. I just don't remember
explicitly saying it.
I probably got that somewhere else. I don't really trust my memory,
anymore.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
From what little I do know, though, I think part of Adam Smith's
popularity arises from his invisible hand quote that seems to imply
that regulation isn't necessary.
I don't think it implies that at all. It does say that
"selfishness" is a great motivator, and many good things can
flow from making use of it (as long as society watches
where it's going). Adam Smith was also an advocate of
progressive taxation though. He said that it was not
unreasonable to ask that those who benefit most from the
social order should pay into supporting humanity not merely
in proportion, but something more than that.
My philosophy with taxes is that the pain should be equalized for
everybody to the extent humanly possible. Or, to put it another way,
if a poor person's tax rate is so high that he has to go hungry to pay
them, the tax rate on a rich person should also be high enough that he
has to go hungry, also.
In that case, everyone would go hungry except those who had government jobs. But lately, since taxes are already so high, the new idea is to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. That way the government can force businesses to pay direct welfare benefits instead of having to collect more tax and then pass it out. Cuts out the middle man so to speak.
Post by mg
In practice, however, it seems that politicians impose regressive
taxes every chance they get. Telephone bills, for instance have all
sorts of regressive taxes on them. A waitress with a cell phone,
supporting her children, for instance, would pay the same cell-phone
tax rate as a billionaire. One extremely regressive tax is sales tax.
Alaska
Delaware
Montana
New Hampshire
Oregon
In other states, the sales tax ranges from 7.5% in California to 2.9%
in Colorado and local counties, cities and municipalities add on more
sales taxes. Then there are the excise taxes and the sin taxes. I know
somebody who used to smoke roll-your-own cigarettes years ago. When
Obama was elected president, one of the first things he did was put a
tax of about 300% on loose tobacco. His cost for a bag of tobacco went
from about $8 to about $24, as I recall. Then there was Obama's
proposed oil/gasoline, Global-Warming tax which would have been very
large and very regressive if it had passed.
Europe's VAT taxes are extremely regressive, even though European
governments are mostly very liberal, I think, or are supposed to be.
El Castor
2018-06-21 19:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:24:58 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
I don't think there is a solution other than educating the public and
continuing to elect non-establishment candidates like Donald Trump and
I'm not even sure that would work. Some of the things on my solutions
Adam Smith was certainly no fan of oligarchy. He was
acutely aware of its unsavouriness, and left most of his
own fortune to help the poor. He was just describing the
way things work, like the inevitability of having to go to
the bathroom and use toilet paper as a necessity for
sustaining life, things being the way they are in this
"best of all possible worlds" as some people like to call
this world.
Nobody would argue that one should avoid going to
the bathroom because one would rather not. Just
because something is necessary doesn't mean it's
the best of all imaginable things.
It's often noted that particular quotation from Adam
Smith is the one most frequently picked off to try to
distort his views by those who don't wish the best for
the human race.
<snip>
I've never actually read anything much about Adam Smith. I think you
might have said something once remarking that reading old poets is
more useful than reading old philosophers and I think that probably
applies to old economists, as well.
From what little I do know, though, I think part of Adam Smith's
popularity arises from his invisible hand quote that seems to imply
that regulation isn't necessary. As for me, I wish he had said
something memorable like that about the value of competition because,
as a man who I have great affection for (me), once said: "Companies
react to competition like Dracula reacts to the crucifix and garlic".
Adam Smiths 1776 book, The Wealth of Nations, was the greatest work
ever written on the subject of economics. In addition to the invisible
hand, he promoted the idea that the wealth of a nation was not
determined by how much gold it possessed, but by the goods and
services it produced. As true today as it was then.
mg
2018-06-23 10:12:26 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 12:14:53 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by mg
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:24:58 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
I don't think there is a solution other than educating the public and
continuing to elect non-establishment candidates like Donald Trump and
I'm not even sure that would work. Some of the things on my solutions
Adam Smith was certainly no fan of oligarchy. He was
acutely aware of its unsavouriness, and left most of his
own fortune to help the poor. He was just describing the
way things work, like the inevitability of having to go to
the bathroom and use toilet paper as a necessity for
sustaining life, things being the way they are in this
"best of all possible worlds" as some people like to call
this world.
Nobody would argue that one should avoid going to
the bathroom because one would rather not. Just
because something is necessary doesn't mean it's
the best of all imaginable things.
It's often noted that particular quotation from Adam
Smith is the one most frequently picked off to try to
distort his views by those who don't wish the best for
the human race.
<snip>
I've never actually read anything much about Adam Smith. I think you
might have said something once remarking that reading old poets is
more useful than reading old philosophers and I think that probably
applies to old economists, as well.
From what little I do know, though, I think part of Adam Smith's
popularity arises from his invisible hand quote that seems to imply
that regulation isn't necessary. As for me, I wish he had said
something memorable like that about the value of competition because,
as a man who I have great affection for (me), once said: "Companies
react to competition like Dracula reacts to the crucifix and garlic".
Adam Smiths 1776 book, The Wealth of Nations, was the greatest work
ever written on the subject of economics. In addition to the invisible
hand, he promoted the idea that the wealth of a nation was not
determined by how much gold it possessed, but by the goods and
services it produced. As true today as it was then.
There's an interesting article on "Adam Smith and Collective
Bargaining" at the following web site:
https://unfashionablylate.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/adam-smith-and-collective-bargaining/
El Castor
2018-06-19 05:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:24:58 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
I don't think there is a solution other than educating the public and
continuing to elect non-establishment candidates like Donald Trump and
I'm not even sure that would work. Some of the things on my solutions
1. Eliminate all income-tax funded retirement benefits for all
politicians, for life, including health care benefits and secret
service protection, if applicable, for any politician, or their
spouse, who makes more than 10 times more in any year, adjusted for
inflation, than they made before they became politicians.
2. Make the income tax system more progressive. Eliminate the Reagan
and Clinton taxes on Social Security and eliminate the automatic
deduction of taxes for tips for waitresses. Reinstate income averaging
and the deduction for consumer loans. Make all medical bills
deductible. Add about 5 tax brackets in the income range between a few
hundred thousand and hundreds of millions of dollars.
3. Eliminate the cap on Social Security and increase the
employer/employee contribution amount to insure that the program can
repay promised benefits after the trust fund is depleted. Don't make
any social engineering, or income transfer types of changes to the
program.
4. Replace the money that Obama took from Medicare and eliminate
Obamacare and the taxes and fees levied to pay for it and establish a
national healthcare system based on Medicare for all. Remove all
artificial limitations, or quotas, on the number of doctors and allow
anyone who wants to be a doctor, and is qualified to be a doctor,
become a doctor. Make it illegal for doctors to become "entrepreneurs"
by investing in medical equipment and then arranging for patient tests
on their equipment. Make any sort of a kick-back arrangement by
medical professionals illegal.
5. Require a formal declaration of war before taking military action
against another country and require strict compliance with the UN
Charter. Modify the constitution, if necessary to limit a president's
power to make war without the formal consent of Congress. Make it
illegal to do in the U.S. what we hanged Nazis at Nuremberg for doing.
6. George Bush "unsigned" the International Criminal Court (ICC) war
crimes treaty. Amend the law/constitution to require that the US
belongs to the ICC and/or make it difficult to withdraw.
7. Completely rescind Bill Clinton's Financial Services Modernization
Act.
8. Completely rescind Bill Clinton's Telecommunications Act which
allowed giant media corporations to increase their monopoly power and
break up the large media conglomerates. Require all news media to
clearly differentiate between editorial content and news and label
editorial material appropriately.
9. Eliminate the loopholes, including super delegates that allow
political parties to engage in fraudulent practices.
10. Implement a referendum system for the federal government similar
to the California system.
11. Implement a nonpartisan blanket primary for the federal government
similar to the California system.
12. Implement laws that encourage employers to give a fair share of
productivity gains to employees.
13. Expand the CBO, beginning with Bill Clinton's NAFTA agreement, to
include the responsibility of examining our trade practices and
agreements every few years to make sure that other countries aren't
cheating and to make sure we are competing on a level playing field
and provide a public report.
14. Make fast-track trade agreements illegal (or unconstitutional).
15. Expand the CBO to include the responsibility of examining U.S.
sanctions against other countries to determine how many innocent
civilians are dying or being injured as a result of the sanctions and
provide a public report.
16. Expand the CBO to monitor all the government intelligence agencies
to insure that they are obeying all relevant laws that they are being
truthful and that the executive branch is not wrongfully misleading
the public.
17. Eliminate corruption. Expand the CBO to provide periodic reports
to congress and the public and provide recommendations on how to
eliminate corruption and/or the perception of corruption
18. Create a new law that doesn't permit any tax cuts, except in a
national emergency, when the US is producing deficits beyond a certain
limit, e.g.: 25% of GDP. Automatically rescind all tax cuts going back
50 years when deficits exceed 50% of GDP. Automatically cut military
spending (in peace time) if deficits exceed 75% of GDP.
19. Rescind all immigration laws created after 1964 and return to the
laws in force before 1965. Reduce immigration to 50,000 emigrants per
year until the population reaches a sustainable level. Allow temporary
worker visas for farm workers only, or employers who have a truly
critical labor shortage and critical national defense purposes.
Shortages to be certified by the Congressional Budget Office.
20. Send the anchor baby law to SCOTUS for formal interpretation. If
necessary modify the constitution to exclude illegal immigrants.
21. Eliminate the federal school loan program and replace it with a
cost sharing program with the states and require that tuition charges
in public school be at a reasonable low level in order for the states
to qualify. At Utah Valley University (UVU), for instance, tuition is
$2271 per semester, plus $364 for fees.
22. Implement term limits.
Whew, forgive me I don't reply. Some I agree with, some I don't. Some
is just nuts. Where did you get the list?
mg
2018-06-19 17:16:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:34:57 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:24:58 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by mg
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Werner
Post by Werner
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/
Almost 3 years have past since that post and it looks like things have
got worse, not better. I'm beginning to wonder if most people actually
like corrupt government. Will everyone who hates corrupt government
stick their head out the window on July 30th, at 10 pm and say, "I'm
mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
So, besides bitching and moaning, what is your solution, MG? A peoples
revolution? Certainly worked well in Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea,
Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, USSR, etc. Oh, but next time we will
get it right -- sure we will.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."
... Adam Smith
I don't think there is a solution other than educating the public and
continuing to elect non-establishment candidates like Donald Trump and
I'm not even sure that would work. Some of the things on my solutions
1. Eliminate all income-tax funded retirement benefits for all
politicians, for life, including health care benefits and secret
service protection, if applicable, for any politician, or their
spouse, who makes more than 10 times more in any year, adjusted for
inflation, than they made before they became politicians.
2. Make the income tax system more progressive. Eliminate the Reagan
and Clinton taxes on Social Security and eliminate the automatic
deduction of taxes for tips for waitresses. Reinstate income averaging
and the deduction for consumer loans. Make all medical bills
deductible. Add about 5 tax brackets in the income range between a few
hundred thousand and hundreds of millions of dollars.
3. Eliminate the cap on Social Security and increase the
employer/employee contribution amount to insure that the program can
repay promised benefits after the trust fund is depleted. Don't make
any social engineering, or income transfer types of changes to the
program.
4. Replace the money that Obama took from Medicare and eliminate
Obamacare and the taxes and fees levied to pay for it and establish a
national healthcare system based on Medicare for all. Remove all
artificial limitations, or quotas, on the number of doctors and allow
anyone who wants to be a doctor, and is qualified to be a doctor,
become a doctor. Make it illegal for doctors to become "entrepreneurs"
by investing in medical equipment and then arranging for patient tests
on their equipment. Make any sort of a kick-back arrangement by
medical professionals illegal.
5. Require a formal declaration of war before taking military action
against another country and require strict compliance with the UN
Charter. Modify the constitution, if necessary to limit a president's
power to make war without the formal consent of Congress. Make it
illegal to do in the U.S. what we hanged Nazis at Nuremberg for doing.
6. George Bush "unsigned" the International Criminal Court (ICC) war
crimes treaty. Amend the law/constitution to require that the US
belongs to the ICC and/or make it difficult to withdraw.
7. Completely rescind Bill Clinton's Financial Services Modernization
Act.
8. Completely rescind Bill Clinton's Telecommunications Act which
allowed giant media corporations to increase their monopoly power and
break up the large media conglomerates. Require all news media to
clearly differentiate between editorial content and news and label
editorial material appropriately.
9. Eliminate the loopholes, including super delegates that allow
political parties to engage in fraudulent practices.
10. Implement a referendum system for the federal government similar
to the California system.
11. Implement a nonpartisan blanket primary for the federal government
similar to the California system.
12. Implement laws that encourage employers to give a fair share of
productivity gains to employees.
13. Expand the CBO, beginning with Bill Clinton's NAFTA agreement, to
include the responsibility of examining our trade practices and
agreements every few years to make sure that other countries aren't
cheating and to make sure we are competing on a level playing field
and provide a public report.
14. Make fast-track trade agreements illegal (or unconstitutional).
15. Expand the CBO to include the responsibility of examining U.S.
sanctions against other countries to determine how many innocent
civilians are dying or being injured as a result of the sanctions and
provide a public report.
16. Expand the CBO to monitor all the government intelligence agencies
to insure that they are obeying all relevant laws that they are being
truthful and that the executive branch is not wrongfully misleading
the public.
17. Eliminate corruption. Expand the CBO to provide periodic reports
to congress and the public and provide recommendations on how to
eliminate corruption and/or the perception of corruption
18. Create a new law that doesn't permit any tax cuts, except in a
national emergency, when the US is producing deficits beyond a certain
limit, e.g.: 25% of GDP. Automatically rescind all tax cuts going back
50 years when deficits exceed 50% of GDP. Automatically cut military
spending (in peace time) if deficits exceed 75% of GDP.
19. Rescind all immigration laws created after 1964 and return to the
laws in force before 1965. Reduce immigration to 50,000 emigrants per
year until the population reaches a sustainable level. Allow temporary
worker visas for farm workers only, or employers who have a truly
critical labor shortage and critical national defense purposes.
Shortages to be certified by the Congressional Budget Office.
20. Send the anchor baby law to SCOTUS for formal interpretation. If
necessary modify the constitution to exclude illegal immigrants.
21. Eliminate the federal school loan program and replace it with a
cost sharing program with the states and require that tuition charges
in public school be at a reasonable low level in order for the states
to qualify. At Utah Valley University (UVU), for instance, tuition is
$2271 per semester, plus $364 for fees.
22. Implement term limits.
Whew, forgive me I don't reply. Some I agree with, some I don't. Some
is just nuts. Where did you get the list?
From ideas that I've accumulated over the years.
me
2018-06-19 06:48:34 UTC
Permalink
My favorite is returning to laws before 1965. But I’d move to a time before that maybe 1913 and the 16th Amendment.
Gary
2018-06-19 22:37:36 UTC
Permalink
My favorite is returning to laws before 1965. But I’d move
to a time before that maybe 1913 and the 16th Amendment.
America was at its best before the laws of 1860 were changed.
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