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In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
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d***@agent.com
2018-07-06 17:29:12 UTC
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In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
By Ellen Barry & Martin Sorensen, July 1, 2018, NY Times

COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she
and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law.
Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by
the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish
newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”

Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from
their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time,
for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions
of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could
result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are
free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age
of six.

Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life
in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families
there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they
should be compelled.

For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to
the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population.
Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where
immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense
concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.

Politicians’ description of the ghettos has become increasingly
sinister. In his annual New Year’s speech, Prime Minister Lars Lokke
Rasmussen warned that ghettos could “reach out their tentacles onto
the streets” by spreading violence, and that because of ghettos,
“cracks have appeared on the map of Denmark.” Politicians who once
used the word “integration” now call frankly for “assimilation.”

That tough approach is embodied in the “ghetto package.” Of 22
proposals presented by the government in early March, most have been
agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, and more will be subject to a
vote in the fall.

Some are punitive: One measure under consideration would allow courts
to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in
one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’
income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal
convictions and “non-Western background.” Another would impose a
four-year prison sentence on immigrant parents who force their
children to make extended visits to their country of origin —
described here as “re-education trips” —in that way damaging their
“schooling, language and well-being.” Another would allow local
authorities to increase their monitoring and surveillance of “ghetto”
families.

Some proposals have been rejected as too radical, like one from the
far-right Danish People’s Party that would confine “ghetto children”
to their homes after 8 p.m. (Challenged on how this would be enforced,
Martin Henriksen, the chairman of Parliament’s integration committee,
suggested in earnest that young people in these areas could be fitted
with electronic ankle bracelets.)

At this summer’s Folkemodet, an annual political gathering on the
island of Bornholm, the justice minister, Soren Pape Poulsen, shrugged
off the rights-based objection.

“Some will wail and say, ‘We’re not equal before the law in this
country,’ and ‘Certain groups are punished harder,’ but that’s
nonsense,” he said, adding that the increased penalties would affect
only people who break the law.

To those claiming the measures single out Muslims, he said: “That’s
nonsense and rubbish. To me this is about, no matter who lives in
these areas and who they believe in, they have to profess to the
values required to have a good life in Denmark.”

Yildiz Akdogan, a Social Democrat whose parliamentary constituency
includes Tingbjerg, which is classified as a ghetto, said Danes had
become so desensitized to harsh rhetoric about immigrants that they no
longer register the negative connotation of the word “ghetto” and its
echoes of Nazi Germany’s separation of Jews.

“We call them ‘ghetto children, ghetto parents,’ it’s so crazy,” Ms.
Akdogan said. “It is becoming a mainstream word, which is so
dangerous. People who know a little about history, our European
not-so-nice period, we know what the word ‘ghetto’ is associated
with.”

She pulled out her phone to display a Facebook post from a right-wing
politician, railing furiously at a Danish supermarket for selling a
cake reading “Eid Mubarak,” for the Muslim holiday of Eid. “Right now,
facts don’t matter so much, it’s only feelings,” she said. “This is
the dangerous part of it.”

For their part, many residents of Danish “ghettos” say they would move
if they could afford to live elsewhere. On a recent afternoon, Ms.
Naassan was sitting with her four sisters in Mjolnerparken, a
four-story, red brick housing complex that is, by the numbers, one of
Denmark’s worst ghettos: forty-three percent of its residents are
unemployed, 82 percent come from “non-Western backgrounds,” 53 percent
have scant education and 51 percent have relatively low earnings.

The Naassan sisters wondered aloud why they were subject to these new
measures. The children of Lebanese refugees, they speak Danish without
an accent and converse with their children in Danish; their children,
they complain, speak so little Arabic that they can barely communicate
with their grandparents. Years ago, growing up in Jutland, in
Denmark’s west, they rarely encountered any anti-Muslim feeling, said
Sara, 32.

“Maybe this is what they always thought, and now it’s out in the
open,” she said. “Danish politics is just about Muslims now. They want
us to get more assimilated or get out. I don’t know when they will be
satisfied with us.”

Rokhaia, her due date fast approaching, flared with anger at the
mandatory preschool program approved by the government last month:
Already, she said, her daughter was being taught so much about
Christmas in kindergarten that she came home begging for presents from
Santa Claus.

“Nobody should tell me whether or how my daughter should go to
preschool. Or when,” she said. “I’d rather lose my benefits than
submit to force.”

Barwaqo Jama Hussein, 18, a Somali refugee, noted that many immigrant
families, including her own, had been settled in “ghetto”
neighborhoods by the government. She moved to Denmark when she was 5
and has lived in the Tingbjerg ghetto area since she was 13. She said
the politicians’ description of “parallel societies” simply did not
fit her, or Tingbjerg.

“It hurts that they don’t see us as equal people,” she said. “We
actually live in Danish society. We follow the rules, we go to school.
The only thing we don’t do is eat pork.”

About 12 miles south of the city, in the middle-class suburb of Greve,
though, voters gushed with approval over the new laws.

“They spend too much Danish money,” said Dorthe Pedersen, a
hairdresser, daubing chestnut dye on a client’s hairline. “We pay
their rent, their clothing, their food, and then they come in broken
Danish and say, ‘We can’t work because we’ve got a pain.’”

Her client, Anni Larsen, told a story about being invited by a Turkish
immigrant to their child’s wedding and being scandalized to discover
that the guests were separated by gender and seated in different
rooms. “I think there were only 10 people from Denmark,” she said,
appalled. “If you ask me, I think they shouldn’t have invited us.”

Anette Jacobsen, 64, a retired pharmacist’s assistant, said she so
treasured Denmark’s welfare system, which had provided her four
children with free education and health care, that she felt a surge of
gratitude every time she paid her taxes, more than 50 percent of her
yearly income. As for immigrants using the system, she said, “There is
always a cat door for someone to sneak in.”

“Morally, they should be grateful to be allowed into our system, which
was built over generations,” she said.

Her husband, Jesper, a former merchant sailor whose ship once docked
in Lebanon, said he had watched laborers there being shot for laziness
and replaced by truckloads of new workers gathered in the countryside.

“I think they are 300 to 400 years behind us,” Jesper said.

“Their culture doesn’t fit here,” Anette said.

The new hard-edge push to force Muslims to integrate struck both of
them as positive. “The young people will see what it is to be Danish
and they will not be like their parents,” Jesper said.

“The grandmothers will die sometime,” Anette said. “They are the ones
resisting change.”

By focusing heavily on the collective cost of supporting refugee and
immigrant families, the Danish People’s Party has won many voters away
from the center-left Social Democrats, who had long been seen as the
defenders of the welfare state. With a general election approaching
next year, the Social Democrat party has shifted to the right on
immigration, saying tougher measures are necessary to protect the
welfare state.

Nearly 87 percent of Denmark’s 5.7 million people are of Danish
descent, with immigrants and their descendants accounting for the
rest. Two-thirds of the immigrants are from non-Western backgrounds, a
group that swelled with the waves of Afghan, Iraqi and Syrian refugees
crossing Europe.

Critics would say “the state cannot force children away from their
parents in the daytime, that’s disproportionate use of force,” said
Rune Lykkeberg, the editor in chief of Dagbladet Information, a
left-liberal daily newspaper. “But the Social Democrats say, ‘We give
people money, and we want something for this money.’ This is a system
of rights and obligations.”

Danes have a high level of trust in the state, including as a central
shaper of children’s ideology and beliefs, he said. “The Anglo-Saxon
conception is that man is free in nature, and then comes the state”
constraining that freedom, he said. “Our conception of freedom is the
opposite, that man is only free in society.”

“You could say, of course, parents have the right to bring up their
own kids,” he added. “We would say they do not have the right to
destroy the future freedom of their children.”

Of course, he added, “There is always a strong sense of authoritarian
risk.”

Ms. Hussain, the high school student from Tingbjerg, is accustomed to
anti-immigrant talk surging ahead of elections, but says this year it
is harsher than she can ever remember.

“If you create new kinds of laws that apply to only one part of
society, then you can keep adding to them,” she said. “It will turn
into the parallel society they’re so afraid of. They will create it
themselves.”

Correction: July 3, 2018
An earlier version of this article gave an incorrect estimate of the
number of Muslims in Denmark. There are half a million non-Western
immigrants and descendants; the Danish government does not provide
statistics on religious groups.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html
rumpelstiltskin
2018-07-06 18:08:58 UTC
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Post by d***@agent.com
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
By Ellen Barry & Martin Sorensen, July 1, 2018, NY Times
COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she
and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law.
Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by
the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish
newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from
their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time,
for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions
of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could
result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are
free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age
of six.
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life
in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families
there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they
should be compelled.
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to
the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population.
Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where
immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense
concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
I only read this far, but I think the Danes have the right idea,
if they're going to be forced by the EU into accepting immigrants
at all, rather than voluntarily vetting and admitting only
immigrants (if any) that they choose themselves based on their
own criteria.



<snip>
islander
2018-07-06 18:54:31 UTC
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
By Ellen Barry & Martin Sorensen, July 1, 2018, NY Times
COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she
and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law.
Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by
the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish
newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from
their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time,
for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions
of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could
result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are
free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age
of six.
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life
in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families
there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they
should be compelled.
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to
the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population.
Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where
immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense
concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
I only read this far, but I think the Danes have the right idea,
if they're going to be forced by the EU into accepting immigrants
at all, rather than voluntarily vetting and admitting only
immigrants (if any) that they choose themselves based on their
own criteria.
<snip>
This is beginning to sound like the forced separation of Indian children
from their families in the US in government boarding schools in the late
19th century in an ill-conceived effort to force assimilation.
https://www.history.com/news/government-boarding-schools-separated-native-american-children-families

There are better ways to nurture assimilation that correspond closely to
affordable housing and elimination of poverty in immigrant communities.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-07-07 04:55:49 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by d***@agent.com
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
By Ellen Barry & Martin Sorensen, July 1, 2018, NY Times
COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she
and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law.
Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by
the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish
newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from
their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time,
for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions
of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could
result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are
free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age
of six.
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life
in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families
there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they
should be compelled.
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to
the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population.
Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where
immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense
concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
I only read this far, but I think the Danes have the right idea,
if they're going to be forced by the EU into accepting immigrants
at all, rather than voluntarily vetting and admitting only
immigrants (if any) that they choose themselves based on their
own criteria.
<snip>
This is beginning to sound like the forced separation of Indian children
from their families in the US in government boarding schools in the late
19th century in an ill-conceived effort to force assimilation.
https://www.history.com/news/government-boarding-schools-separated-native-american-children-families
There are better ways to nurture assimilation that correspond closely to
affordable housing and elimination of poverty in immigrant communities.
There was just a show on PBS about the Spanish occupation of
Florida. According to that show, there were prominent black
leaders among the Spanish, and relations with the native tribes
were amicable and mutually beneficial. That's very much in
contrast with the utter savagery and barbarianism of the later
Spanish ventures in Mexico (including California) and in Central
and South America.

When the English took over Florida, they enslaved the blacks
of course, and weren't any better toward the native Americans.
Then the American revolution happened, and things were no
better. So much for the utter hypocrisy of Jefferson in "We
hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable
rights, among which are Life, Liberty, and (substituted for
Locke's "property") "the pursuit of happiness". That's from
memory so I might not have gotten it correct verbatim.
Gary
2018-07-07 11:45:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by d***@agent.com
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to
the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population.
Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where
immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense
concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
I only read this far, but I think the Danes have the right idea,
if they're going to be forced by the EU into accepting immigrants
at all, rather than voluntarily vetting and admitting only
immigrants (if any) that they choose themselves based on their
own criteria.
<snip>
This is beginning to sound like the forced separation of Indian children
from their families in the US in government boarding schools in the late
19th century in an ill-conceived effort to force assimilation.
https://www.history.com/news/government-boarding-schools-separated-native-american-children-families
There are better ways to nurture assimilation that correspond closely to
affordable housing and elimination of poverty in immigrant communities.
There was just a show on PBS about the Spanish occupation of
Florida. According to that show, there were prominent black
leaders among the Spanish,
I'm surprised PBS didn't say the King of Spain was a colored
boy.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
and relations with the native tribes
were amicable and mutually beneficial. That's very much in
contrast with the utter savagery and barbarianism of the later
Spanish ventures in Mexico (including California) and in Central
and South America.
PBS runs a lot of historical lies to make Americas's white
children think blacks are just as good and important to
American history as they are.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
When the English took over Florida, they enslaved the blacks
of course, and weren't any better toward the native Americans.
Then the American revolution happened, and things were no
better. So much for the utter hypocrisy of Jefferson in "We
hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable
rights, among which are Life, Liberty, and (substituted for
Locke's "property") "the pursuit of happiness". That's from
memory so I might not have gotten it correct verbatim.
Here's the part of the Declaration they did not teach us in
school ---

"....and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our
frontiers,
the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare,
is
undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and
conditions...."

"merciless Indian savages" ? Wow! In all these many
years, I had
never heard or read that this was one of Thomas Jefferson's
thoughts.

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/1776-1785/the-final-text-of-the-declaration-of-independence-july-4-1776.php
islander
2018-07-07 14:21:25 UTC
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
By Ellen Barry & Martin Sorensen, July 1, 2018, NY Times
COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she
and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law.
Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by
the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish
newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from
their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time,
for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions
of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could
result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are
free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age
of six.
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life
in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families
there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they
should be compelled.
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to
the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population.
Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where
immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense
concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
I only read this far, but I think the Danes have the right idea,
if they're going to be forced by the EU into accepting immigrants
at all, rather than voluntarily vetting and admitting only
immigrants (if any) that they choose themselves based on their
own criteria.
<snip>
This is beginning to sound like the forced separation of Indian children
from their families in the US in government boarding schools in the late
19th century in an ill-conceived effort to force assimilation.
https://www.history.com/news/government-boarding-schools-separated-native-american-children-families
There are better ways to nurture assimilation that correspond closely to
affordable housing and elimination of poverty in immigrant communities.
There was just a show on PBS about the Spanish occupation of
Florida. According to that show, there were prominent black
leaders among the Spanish, and relations with the native tribes
were amicable and mutually beneficial. That's very much in
contrast with the utter savagery and barbarianism of the later
Spanish ventures in Mexico (including California) and in Central
and South America.
Was that Secrets of Spanish Florida, one of the PBS series on Secrets of
the Dead? I missed it, but can get it over the Internet if I subscribe
at a cost of $6 per month.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
When the English took over Florida, they enslaved the blacks
of course, and weren't any better toward the native Americans.
Then the American revolution happened, and things were no
better. So much for the utter hypocrisy of Jefferson in "We
hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable
rights, among which are Life, Liberty, and (substituted for
Locke's "property") "the pursuit of happiness". That's from
memory so I might not have gotten it correct verbatim.
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-07-08 01:07:24 UTC
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Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by d***@agent.com
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
By Ellen Barry & Martin Sorensen, July 1, 2018, NY Times
COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she
and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law.
Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by
the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish
newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from
their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time,
for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions
of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could
result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are
free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age
of six.
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life
in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families
there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they
should be compelled.
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to
the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population.
Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where
immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense
concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
I only read this far, but I think the Danes have the right idea,
if they're going to be forced by the EU into accepting immigrants
at all, rather than voluntarily vetting and admitting only
immigrants (if any) that they choose themselves based on their
own criteria.
<snip>
This is beginning to sound like the forced separation of Indian children
from their families in the US in government boarding schools in the late
19th century in an ill-conceived effort to force assimilation.
https://www.history.com/news/government-boarding-schools-separated-native-american-children-families
There are better ways to nurture assimilation that correspond closely to
affordable housing and elimination of poverty in immigrant communities.
There was just a show on PBS about the Spanish occupation of
Florida. According to that show, there were prominent black
leaders among the Spanish, and relations with the native tribes
were amicable and mutually beneficial. That's very much in
contrast with the utter savagery and barbarianism of the later
Spanish ventures in Mexico (including California) and in Central
and South America.
Was that Secrets of Spanish Florida, one of the PBS series on Secrets of
the Dead? I missed it, but can get it over the Internet if I subscribe
at a cost of $6 per month.
Probably. It was part of the continuing series "Secrets of
the Dead".
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
When the English took over Florida, they enslaved the blacks
of course, and weren't any better toward the native Americans.
Then the American revolution happened, and things were no
better. So much for the utter hypocrisy of Jefferson in "We
hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable
rights, among which are Life, Liberty, and (substituted for
Locke's "property") "the pursuit of happiness". That's from
memory so I might not have gotten it correct verbatim.
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
islander
2018-07-08 04:56:59 UTC
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
By Ellen Barry & Martin Sorensen, July 1, 2018, NY Times
COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she
and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law.
Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by
the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish
newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from
their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time,
for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions
of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could
result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are
free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age
of six.
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life
in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families
there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they
should be compelled.
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to
the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population.
Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where
immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense
concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
I only read this far, but I think the Danes have the right idea,
if they're going to be forced by the EU into accepting immigrants
at all, rather than voluntarily vetting and admitting only
immigrants (if any) that they choose themselves based on their
own criteria.
<snip>
This is beginning to sound like the forced separation of Indian children
from their families in the US in government boarding schools in the late
19th century in an ill-conceived effort to force assimilation.
https://www.history.com/news/government-boarding-schools-separated-native-american-children-families
There are better ways to nurture assimilation that correspond closely to
affordable housing and elimination of poverty in immigrant communities.
There was just a show on PBS about the Spanish occupation of
Florida. According to that show, there were prominent black
leaders among the Spanish, and relations with the native tribes
were amicable and mutually beneficial. That's very much in
contrast with the utter savagery and barbarianism of the later
Spanish ventures in Mexico (including California) and in Central
and South America.
Was that Secrets of Spanish Florida, one of the PBS series on Secrets of
the Dead? I missed it, but can get it over the Internet if I subscribe
at a cost of $6 per month.
Probably. It was part of the continuing series "Secrets of
the Dead".
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
When the English took over Florida, they enslaved the blacks
of course, and weren't any better toward the native Americans.
Then the American revolution happened, and things were no
better. So much for the utter hypocrisy of Jefferson in "We
hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable
rights, among which are Life, Liberty, and (substituted for
Locke's "property") "the pursuit of happiness". That's from
memory so I might not have gotten it correct verbatim.
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.

I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-07-08 05:38:58 UTC
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Post by islander
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
I admittedly waste a lot of time on nothing, but
even so, I hope I NEVER get involved in "Social
Media". Soc.Retirement is a waste of time, but
social media seems far more time consuming to
me, and it's also very touchy-feely which I don't
like.

I've heard of, and read about, the "blank slate"
of course, but it seems obvious to me that humans
have certain predispositions built-in but "society"
builds on and transforms, sometimes beyond
recognition, those primal "instincts". Ants act
like ants entirely based on the built-in stuff.
Humans have a lot of social and other complexity,
that modifies and twists-and-turns the built-in
stuff, but the built-in stuff is still firmly at the
bottom of everything. IMO, of course.
islander
2018-07-08 13:21:12 UTC
Reply
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
I admittedly waste a lot of time on nothing, but
even so, I hope I NEVER get involved in "Social
Media". Soc.Retirement is a waste of time, but
social media seems far more time consuming to
me, and it's also very touchy-feely which I don't
like.
I've heard of, and read about, the "blank slate"
of course, but it seems obvious to me that humans
have certain predispositions built-in but "society"
builds on and transforms, sometimes beyond
recognition, those primal "instincts". Ants act
like ants entirely based on the built-in stuff.
Humans have a lot of social and other complexity,
that modifies and twists-and-turns the built-in
stuff, but the built-in stuff is still firmly at the
bottom of everything. IMO, of course.
I've written here before about the three levels of knowledge, intrinsic,
experiential, and reasoned. Intrinsic is what Pinker is stressing in
this book, I think (I haven't read it yet), and the distinction between
the other two is about how we learn from experience and what we puzzle
out through rational thought. Jonathan Haidt makes the analogy of the
elephant and the rider to distinguish between these two.

From a video that I have seen by Pinker, he places a lot of emphasis on
what we inherit in our genes, but gives a nod to what happens in the
womb, a point that I have argued with Jeff about as pertains to
intelligence. After I read *Blank Slate*, I may try to contact Pinker
if my Stanford credentials still count for anything.

Social media is definitely addictive and the dark side of social media
is the profiles that are collected about people who engage in that
activity. This is what all the fuss is about with Facebook and Twitter,
but also Google. The spill-over of manipulative use of these media into
others is not as obvious, but Watts makes a strong case for how this
happens and how it can be and is used to sow political disruption.
Gary
2018-07-08 12:07:58 UTC
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Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --

Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.

Excerpt ---

Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.

https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
islander
2018-07-08 14:02:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
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Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.

Gary
2018-07-08 16:43:17 UTC
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On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 07:02:10 -0700, islander
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Thanks, but my video player is broken.

That thought is interesting. I've begun to wonder what --
besides genes -- causes human intelligence. From what I've
read about the origins of man -- from the caves to the
present -- I'm beginning to wonder about something. It may
sound stupid -- but let me condense it in a few words:
"What came first ? Advanced intelligence or advanced
culture ?"

In other words -- did man become intelligent "before" he
began to build a human community -- or did the intelligence
arrive "after" he became a part of a community ? Was the
human community a result of intelligence ? Or was
intellgience the result of being part of a "civilized"
community ?
El Castor
2018-07-08 19:06:30 UTC
Reply
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Post by Gary
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 07:02:10 -0700, islander
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Thanks, but my video player is broken.
That thought is interesting. I've begun to wonder what --
besides genes -- causes human intelligence. From what I've
read about the origins of man -- from the caves to the
present -- I'm beginning to wonder about something. It may
"What came first ? Advanced intelligence or advanced
culture ?"
In other words -- did man become intelligent "before" he
began to build a human community -- or did the intelligence
arrive "after" he became a part of a community ? Was the
human community a result of intelligence ? Or was
intellgience the result of being part of a "civilized"
community ?
Darwin explained that evolution was a product of genetic success.
Genetic mutations that help to insure our survival, and thereby
increase our chances of reproducing, make up the genes that are passed
down to our progeny. In East Africa, genes that aided running and
stamina may have been more essential to survival and reproduction than
genes that aided banking in Bucharest. Today the Olympic prizes go to
East Africans and the Nobel prizes to the descendants of those
Bucharest bankers.
Gary
2018-07-09 16:28:04 UTC
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On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 12:06:30 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 07:02:10 -0700, islander
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Thanks, but my video player is broken.
That thought is interesting. I've begun to wonder what --
besides genes -- causes human intelligence. From what I've
read about the origins of man -- from the caves to the
present -- I'm beginning to wonder about something. It may
"What came first ? Advanced intelligence or advanced
culture ?"
In other words -- did man become intelligent "before" he
began to build a human community -- or did the intelligence
arrive "after" he became a part of a community ? Was the
human community a result of intelligence ? Or was
intellgience the result of being part of a "civilized"
community ?
Darwin explained that evolution was a product of genetic success.
Genetic mutations that help to insure our survival, and thereby
increase our chances of reproducing, make up the genes that are passed
down to our progeny. In East Africa, genes that aided running and
stamina may have been more essential to survival and reproduction than
genes that aided banking in Bucharest. Today the Olympic prizes go to
East Africans and the Nobel prizes to the descendants of those
Bucharest bankers.
And ... people who invented the pistol do not have to run
fast :-)
El Castor
2018-07-08 19:36:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
islander
2018-07-09 04:29:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
No, it is an admission that we don't know. Genetics is complicated.

Of particular importance is to develop a better understanding of what
happens in the first trimester of pregnancy. If some inherited immunity
to viral infection is a possibility (and I'm not claiming that it is)
then intelligence would be affected.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-07-09 06:20:40 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
No, it is an admission that we don't know. Genetics is complicated.
Of particular importance is to develop a better understanding of what
happens in the first trimester of pregnancy. If some inherited immunity
to viral infection is a possibility (and I'm not claiming that it is)
then intelligence would be affected.
I may be being politically incorrect, but I see no reason
to assume there cannot be genetic systematic differences
in traits between different "subspecies" or "populations"
of humans. It can't be denied, for example, that there
are systematic differences in skin colour.
Josh Rosenbluth
2018-07-09 07:22:07 UTC
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Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
No, it is an admission that we don't know. Genetics is complicated.
Of particular importance is to develop a better understanding of what
happens in the first trimester of pregnancy. If some inherited immunity
to viral infection is a possibility (and I'm not claiming that it is)
then intelligence would be affected.
I may be being politically incorrect, but I see no reason
to assume there cannot be genetic systematic differences
in traits between different "subspecies" or "populations"
of humans. It can't be denied, for example, that there
are systematic differences in skin colour.
Of course genetics account for a significant part of intelligence. And,
genetics account for a significant part of what constitutes various
sub-populations including skin color. But it is pure speculation that
genetic differences in sub-populations play a significant role in the
difference in intelligence between sub-populations. We shouldn't be
speculating.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-07-09 14:31:50 UTC
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<snip>
Post by Josh Rosenbluth
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I may be being politically incorrect, but I see no reason
to assume there cannot be genetic systematic differences
in traits between different "subspecies" or "populations"
of humans. It can't be denied, for example, that there
are systematic differences in skin colour.
Of course genetics account for a significant part of intelligence. And,
genetics account for a significant part of what constitutes various
sub-populations including skin color. But it is pure speculation that
genetic differences in sub-populations play a significant role in the
difference in intelligence between sub-populations. We shouldn't be
speculating.
Political correctness strait-jacket.
Josh Rosenbluth
2018-07-09 15:10:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by Josh Rosenbluth
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I may be being politically incorrect, but I see no reason
to assume there cannot be genetic systematic differences
in traits between different "subspecies" or "populations"
of humans. It can't be denied, for example, that there
are systematic differences in skin colour.
Of course genetics account for a significant part of intelligence. And,
genetics account for a significant part of what constitutes various
sub-populations including skin color. But it is pure speculation that
genetic differences in sub-populations play a significant role in the
difference in intelligence between sub-populations. We shouldn't be
speculating.
Political correctness strait-jacket.
I disagree. Political correctness includes refusing to acknowledge
*facts* and *evidence* because of their political implications. I also
agree with islander that political correctness includes refusing to ask
or study whether genetic differences in sub-populations play a
significant role in the difference in intelligence between
sub-populations. However, political correctness does not include the
refusal to *speculate*.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-07-09 16:18:19 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Josh Rosenbluth
Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by Josh Rosenbluth
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I may be being politically incorrect, but I see no reason
to assume there cannot be genetic systematic differences
in traits between different "subspecies" or "populations"
of humans. It can't be denied, for example, that there
are systematic differences in skin colour.
Of course genetics account for a significant part of intelligence. And,
genetics account for a significant part of what constitutes various
sub-populations including skin color. But it is pure speculation that
genetic differences in sub-populations play a significant role in the
difference in intelligence between sub-populations. We shouldn't be
speculating.
Political correctness strait-jacket.
I disagree. Political correctness includes refusing to acknowledge
*facts* and *evidence* because of their political implications. I also
agree with islander that political correctness includes refusing to ask
or study whether genetic differences in sub-populations play a
significant role in the difference in intelligence between
sub-populations. However, political correctness does not include the
refusal to *speculate*.
If you refuse to speculate, that's fine for yourself.
I'm speculating without being judgmental. I may
not be afraid of exactly the same things that you are.

I speculate that Germanic people have historically
written far more great music than British people.


That's fine with me, I can enjoy Germanic music
without feeling it's a threat to me as a Brit, or as
a "legal immigrant" in America.
islander
2018-07-09 14:39:18 UTC
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Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker.  We
have
learned a lot over the years.  Even Jefferson's replacement of
Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
       I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate
people.  It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me.
Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi.  He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
No, it is an admission that we don't know.  Genetics is complicated.
Of particular importance is to develop a better understanding of what
happens in the first trimester of pregnancy.  If some inherited immunity
to viral infection is a possibility (and I'm not claiming that it is)
then intelligence would be affected.
    I may be being politically incorrect, but I see no reason
to assume there cannot be genetic systematic differences
in traits between different "subspecies" or "populations"
of humans.   It can't be denied, for example, that there
are systematic differences in skin colour.
Of course genetics account for a significant part of intelligence.  And,
genetics account for a significant part of what constitutes various
sub-populations including skin color.  But it is pure speculation that
genetic differences in sub-populations play a significant role in the
difference in intelligence between sub-populations.  We shouldn't be
speculating.
I will disagree slightly on your last point. Yes, we shouldn't be
speculating, but we should be asking. Murray and Herrnstein discovered
a correlation between intelligence and race. One might and some do
argue that their investigative method was flawed, but that is not my
concern with what they published. My concern is the conclusion that
they reached and which has been used as an excuse for racism.

The common mistake is to assume that correlation proves cause, in this
case the argument is that detection of lower intelligence for a group of
people is proof that that group is irreversibly inferior due to
genetics. That sort of reasoning is speculation and I agree that we
should not be speculating on the basis of flawed science.

Jeff and I have been arguing for years about this. The basis of my
argument is that there are factors other than genetics that influence
intelligence and I have focused on how and when the brain develops,
specifically what happens during the first trimester of pregnancy. We
know, for example, that viral infection during this critical period
interferes with all aspect of fetal development including the brain.
Other environmental factors are also known to affect fetal development.
For example, we advise pregnant women to avoid smoking, alcohol, and
certain drugs. But, do we advise them to avoid living in places that
have higher levels of pollutants? I argue, along with others, that
there are many factors associated with poverty that could be causal.

It is better, I think, to look for causes that might be corrected than
to settle for the genetic racial argument which is, IMV, used as a
convenient excuse to do nothing.
El Castor
2018-07-09 07:33:17 UTC
Reply
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Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
No, it is an admission that we don't know. Genetics is complicated.
Of particular importance is to develop a better understanding of what
happens in the first trimester of pregnancy. If some inherited immunity
to viral infection is a possibility (and I'm not claiming that it is)
then intelligence would be affected.
Well, I don't know is an improvement. I will try to help you know. BTW
-- how hard would it be to study Ashkenazi Jewish women during that
first 3 months and discover their secret? With that bit of knowledge,
African American IQs could spring from a median of 85 to 115. Wow,
that would certainly be worthwhile!

On the other hand, here is something that might help you "know".

"DNA tests can predict intelligence, scientists show for first time"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/12/dna-tests-can-predict-intelligence-scientists-show-first-time/
islander
2018-07-09 14:49:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
No, it is an admission that we don't know. Genetics is complicated.
Of particular importance is to develop a better understanding of what
happens in the first trimester of pregnancy. If some inherited immunity
to viral infection is a possibility (and I'm not claiming that it is)
then intelligence would be affected.
Well, I don't know is an improvement. I will try to help you know. BTW
-- how hard would it be to study Ashkenazi Jewish women during that
first 3 months and discover their secret? With that bit of knowledge,
African American IQs could spring from a median of 85 to 115. Wow,
that would certainly be worthwhile!
On the other hand, here is something that might help you "know".
"DNA tests can predict intelligence, scientists show for first time"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/12/dna-tests-can-predict-intelligence-scientists-show-first-time/
The Imperial College report upon which this article is based is yet
another twin study and I have explained to you several times that this
does not account for what happens in-utero.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12061787/Intelligence-genes-discovered-by-scientists.html
El Castor
2018-07-09 17:37:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
No, it is an admission that we don't know. Genetics is complicated.
Of particular importance is to develop a better understanding of what
happens in the first trimester of pregnancy. If some inherited immunity
to viral infection is a possibility (and I'm not claiming that it is)
then intelligence would be affected.
Well, I don't know is an improvement. I will try to help you know. BTW
-- how hard would it be to study Ashkenazi Jewish women during that
first 3 months and discover their secret? With that bit of knowledge,
African American IQs could spring from a median of 85 to 115. Wow,
that would certainly be worthwhile!
On the other hand, here is something that might help you "know".
"DNA tests can predict intelligence, scientists show for first time"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/12/dna-tests-can-predict-intelligence-scientists-show-first-time/
The Imperial College report upon which this article is based is yet
another twin study and I have explained to you several times that this
does not account for what happens in-utero.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12061787/Intelligence-genes-discovered-by-scientists.html
Your problem with twins studies is not because they are ineffective,
but rather because they prove heritability -- which your politics will
not permit you to accept.

"Twins Separated at Birth Reveal Staggering Influence of Genetics"
https://www.livescience.com/47288-twin-study-importance-of-genetics.html


"Twin Studies: A Unique Epidemiological Tool" ...
"Scholars have long studied twins to address the “nature and nurture”
question; however, opposing “nature” to “nurture” is misleading. Genes
combine with the environment to produce complex human traits. The
importance of genes suggested by earlier twin studies has often been
confirmed by later molecular genetic studies. Therefore, twin studies
will continue to inform mankind about the relative importance of genes
and the environment on traits in ways that no other type of research
ever can. Though they have received much criticism, the advancement of
statistical techniques (such as structural equation modeling) and the
implementation of additional controls have allayed some of the
concerns, if not all. The original twin study design has expanded to
include studies of twins' extended families, longitudinal studies, and
other variations. Some of these variations may allow researchers to
address previous limitations also. Many molecular genetic studies have
shown the usefulness of twin studies as an exploratory tool, whether
or not the assumptions of equal environments and assortative mating
are exactly met.
Therefore, twin studies will continue to be an important tool along
with emerging genome and molecular research methods in shedding light
on various aspects of human genetics and on how environmental factors
and genetics combine to create human traits and behaviors."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4919929/

Your argument against twins studies is the same old clap trap -- our
path in life is not greatly influenced by our DNA, but rather by some
mysterious force during gestation -- perhaps a virus, nutrition, or
whatever. If the remarkable difference between the intelligence of
Ashkenazi Jews/East Asians and their fellow humans of Sub-Saharan
African descent, raised in the same country and the same city,
depended on these environmental factors, then where is the study to
prove it? There is none. Face it -- our genetics determines a great
deal -- not just obvious attributes such as skin color, but
personality, athletic ability, stature, susceptibility to disease,
intelligence, and innumerable other factors. I actually feel sorry for
you. You don't understand that you are not a scientist, but above all
else a man guided by his religion -- politics.
Gary
2018-07-09 18:17:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 09 Jul 2018 10:37:22 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Well, I don't know is an improvement. I will try to help you know. BTW
-- how hard would it be to study Ashkenazi Jewish women during that
first 3 months and discover their secret? With that bit of knowledge,
African American IQs could spring from a median of 85 to 115. Wow,
that would certainly be worthwhile!
On the other hand, here is something that might help you "know".
"DNA tests can predict intelligence, scientists show for first time"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/12/dna-tests-can-predict-intelligence-scientists-show-first-time/
The Imperial College report upon which this article is based is yet
another twin study and I have explained to you several times that this
does not account for what happens in-utero.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12061787/Intelligence-genes-discovered-by-scientists.html
Your problem with twins studies is not because they are ineffective,
but rather because they prove heritability -- which your politics will
not permit you to accept.
"Twins Separated at Birth Reveal Staggering Influence of Genetics"
https://www.livescience.com/47288-twin-study-importance-of-genetics.html
<snip>

I'm beginning to wonder if environment might be a greater
influence on IQs than I use to think. Let's say a pair on
identical twin boys were born to an African mother on the
banks of the Congo river. And scientist were able to --
immediately -- take one of those boys to be brought up by a
wealthy family in New York.

Twenty-one years later -- would that boy in New York have a
(significantly) higher IQ than the one raised in Africa ?
El Castor
2018-07-09 19:02:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gary
On Mon, 09 Jul 2018 10:37:22 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Well, I don't know is an improvement. I will try to help you know. BTW
-- how hard would it be to study Ashkenazi Jewish women during that
first 3 months and discover their secret? With that bit of knowledge,
African American IQs could spring from a median of 85 to 115. Wow,
that would certainly be worthwhile!
On the other hand, here is something that might help you "know".
"DNA tests can predict intelligence, scientists show for first time"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/12/dna-tests-can-predict-intelligence-scientists-show-first-time/
The Imperial College report upon which this article is based is yet
another twin study and I have explained to you several times that this
does not account for what happens in-utero.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12061787/Intelligence-genes-discovered-by-scientists.html
Your problem with twins studies is not because they are ineffective,
but rather because they prove heritability -- which your politics will
not permit you to accept.
"Twins Separated at Birth Reveal Staggering Influence of Genetics"
https://www.livescience.com/47288-twin-study-importance-of-genetics.html
<snip>
I'm beginning to wonder if environment might be a greater
influence on IQs than I use to think. Let's say a pair on
identical twin boys were born to an African mother on the
banks of the Congo river. And scientist were able to --
immediately -- take one of those boys to be brought up by a
wealthy family in New York.
Twenty-one years later -- would that boy in New York have a
(significantly) higher IQ than the one raised in Africa ?
I expect you're right. Environment plays a role -- that's a proven
fact, but not to the extent that our DNA does. Differences based on
genetics are huge, and can be quite subtle -- affecting even
personality. Just looked it up -- average IQs in the Democratic
Republic of the Congo are 78. Ashkenazi Jews, in the 110 - 115 range.
So that kid from the Congo raised by a wealthy NY Jewish family, 110 -
115? Take a Jewish kid from NY and see him raised by an East African
family in Kenya. Is he going to be Olympic runner material? Compete
against Usane Bolt or East African marathoners? I wouldn't bet on it.
Our genetics can't be denied.
islander
2018-07-09 20:32:20 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
No, it is an admission that we don't know. Genetics is complicated.
Of particular importance is to develop a better understanding of what
happens in the first trimester of pregnancy. If some inherited immunity
to viral infection is a possibility (and I'm not claiming that it is)
then intelligence would be affected.
Well, I don't know is an improvement. I will try to help you know. BTW
-- how hard would it be to study Ashkenazi Jewish women during that
first 3 months and discover their secret? With that bit of knowledge,
African American IQs could spring from a median of 85 to 115. Wow,
that would certainly be worthwhile!
On the other hand, here is something that might help you "know".
"DNA tests can predict intelligence, scientists show for first time"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/12/dna-tests-can-predict-intelligence-scientists-show-first-time/
The Imperial College report upon which this article is based is yet
another twin study and I have explained to you several times that this
does not account for what happens in-utero.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12061787/Intelligence-genes-discovered-by-scientists.html
Your problem with twins studies is not because they are ineffective,
but rather because they prove heritability -- which your politics will
not permit you to accept.
"Twins Separated at Birth Reveal Staggering Influence of Genetics"
https://www.livescience.com/47288-twin-study-importance-of-genetics.html
"Twin Studies: A Unique Epidemiological Tool" ...
"Scholars have long studied twins to address the “nature and nurture”
question; however, opposing “nature” to “nurture” is misleading. Genes
combine with the environment to produce complex human traits. The
importance of genes suggested by earlier twin studies has often been
confirmed by later molecular genetic studies. Therefore, twin studies
will continue to inform mankind about the relative importance of genes
and the environment on traits in ways that no other type of research
ever can. Though they have received much criticism, the advancement of
statistical techniques (such as structural equation modeling) and the
implementation of additional controls have allayed some of the
concerns, if not all. The original twin study design has expanded to
include studies of twins' extended families, longitudinal studies, and
other variations. Some of these variations may allow researchers to
address previous limitations also. Many molecular genetic studies have
shown the usefulness of twin studies as an exploratory tool, whether
or not the assumptions of equal environments and assortative mating
are exactly met.
Therefore, twin studies will continue to be an important tool along
with emerging genome and molecular research methods in shedding light
on various aspects of human genetics and on how environmental factors
and genetics combine to create human traits and behaviors."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4919929/
Your argument against twins studies is the same old clap trap -- our
path in life is not greatly influenced by our DNA, but rather by some
mysterious force during gestation -- perhaps a virus, nutrition, or
whatever. If the remarkable difference between the intelligence of
Ashkenazi Jews/East Asians and their fellow humans of Sub-Saharan
African descent, raised in the same country and the same city,
depended on these environmental factors, then where is the study to
prove it? There is none. Face it -- our genetics determines a great
deal -- not just obvious attributes such as skin color, but
personality, athletic ability, stature, susceptibility to disease,
intelligence, and innumerable other factors. I actually feel sorry for
you. You don't understand that you are not a scientist, but above all
else a man guided by his religion -- politics.
"Exploratory" is the relevant word in the above. I have no problem with
continued research, but that research is also subject to criticism and
twin studies only address the nature vs. nurture argument after birth.
What remains is the question of what happens before birth when the
development of the brain happens. That is not politics, but it is
science. Your selective use of citations screams politics, by contrast,
as if the science was settled. The science is far from being settled
and obstruction of continuing research because of right wing political
opposition is more distasteful to me than for you.
El Castor
2018-07-10 07:18:29 UTC
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Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by Gary
Post by islander
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by islander
Add this to the list of reasons that I like Steven Pinker. We have
learned a lot over the years. Even Jefferson's replacement of Locke's
"property" is progress, IMV.
I am finding his latest book a bit wordy, but I'm getting
through it, slowly, I'm about halfway through.
I've been so favorably impressed with Pinker that I've purchased his
*The Blank Slate* which is one of his more controversial books on the
topic of nature vs. nurture.
I'm nearly finished with *Messing with the Enemy* by Clint Watts which
is about how social media can be and is used to manipulate people. It
is pretty technically detailed and makes a lot of sense to me. Further,
he describes how this works, even for people who don't use social media.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Pinker --
Groups and Genes
By Steven Pinker
June 26, 2006
The lessons of the Ashkenazim.
Excerpt ---
Many Jews subscribe to a folk theory that attributes Jewish
intelligence to what would have to be the weirdest example of sexual
selection in the living world: that for generations in the shtetl, the
brightest yeshiva boy was betrothed to the daughter of the richest
man, thereby favoring the genes, if such genes there are, for Talmudic
pilpul.
https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
Pinker acknowledges that we don't know what produces higher intelligence
in the Ashkenazi. He speculates that the same genetically caused
diseases produced by inbreeding may be related.
http://youtu.be/Beqtt42iDW8
Am I hallucinating, or is that an admission that Ashkenazi
intelligence just might have a genetic connection? Jews comprise a
tiny fraction of 1% of the world's population, and yet 22% of Nobel
prize winners are Jews. BTW -- Sephardic Jews, a Middle Eastern
faction that for centuries lived without contact with Eastern European
Ashkenazi Jews, lacks the high IQ, as well as the genetic diseases
like Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis.
No, it is an admission that we don't know. Genetics is complicated.
Of particular importance is to develop a better understanding of what
happens in the first trimester of pregnancy. If some inherited immunity
to viral infection is a possibility (and I'm not claiming that it is)
then intelligence would be affected.
Well, I don't know is an improvement. I will try to help you know. BTW
-- how hard would it be to study Ashkenazi Jewish women during that
first 3 months and discover their secret? With that bit of knowledge,
African American IQs could spring from a median of 85 to 115. Wow,
that would certainly be worthwhile!
On the other hand, here is something that might help you "know".
"DNA tests can predict intelligence, scientists show for first time"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/12/dna-tests-can-predict-intelligence-scientists-show-first-time/
The Imperial College report upon which this article is based is yet
another twin study and I have explained to you several times that this
does not account for what happens in-utero.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12061787/Intelligence-genes-discovered-by-scientists.html
Your problem with twins studies is not because they are ineffective,
but rather because they prove heritability -- which your politics will
not permit you to accept.
"Twins Separated at Birth Reveal Staggering Influence of Genetics"
https://www.livescience.com/47288-twin-study-importance-of-genetics.html
"Twin Studies: A Unique Epidemiological Tool" ...
"Scholars have long studied twins to address the “nature and nurture”
question; however, opposing “nature” to “nurture” is misleading. Genes
combine with the environment to produce complex human traits. The
importance of genes suggested by earlier twin studies has often been
confirmed by later molecular genetic studies. Therefore, twin studies
will continue to inform mankind about the relative importance of genes
and the environment on traits in ways that no other type of research
ever can. Though they have received much criticism, the advancement of
statistical techniques (such as structural equation modeling) and the
implementation of additional controls have allayed some of the
concerns, if not all. The original twin study design has expanded to
include studies of twins' extended families, longitudinal studies, and
other variations. Some of these variations may allow researchers to
address previous limitations also. Many molecular genetic studies have
shown the usefulness of twin studies as an exploratory tool, whether
or not the assumptions of equal environments and assortative mating
are exactly met.
Therefore, twin studies will continue to be an important tool along
with emerging genome and molecular research methods in shedding light
on various aspects of human genetics and on how environmental factors
and genetics combine to create human traits and behaviors."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4919929/
Your argument against twins studies is the same old clap trap -- our
path in life is not greatly influenced by our DNA, but rather by some
mysterious force during gestation -- perhaps a virus, nutrition, or
whatever. If the remarkable difference between the intelligence of
Ashkenazi Jews/East Asians and their fellow humans of Sub-Saharan
African descent, raised in the same country and the same city,
depended on these environmental factors, then where is the study to
prove it? There is none. Face it -- our genetics determines a great
deal -- not just obvious attributes such as skin color, but
personality, athletic ability, stature, susceptibility to disease,
intelligence, and innumerable other factors. I actually feel sorry for
you. You don't understand that you are not a scientist, but above all
else a man guided by his religion -- politics.
"Exploratory" is the relevant word in the above. I have no problem with
continued research, but that research is also subject to criticism and
twin studies only address the nature vs. nurture argument after birth.
What remains is the question of what happens before birth when the
development of the brain happens. That is not politics, but it is
science. Your selective use of citations screams politics, by contrast,
as if the science was settled. The science is far from being settled
and obstruction of continuing research because of right wing political
opposition is more distasteful to me than for you.
I agree that the science is far from settled -- but, as East Asians
and Ashkenazi Jews move about the planet we see a consistency in
genetic attributes. They bring their genes and intelligence with them,
and the DNA of their children is as equally at home in New York, as it
would be in Shanghai, Seoul, or Tel Aviv. The structure of the body
and the brain is highly complex. It is becoming increasingly clear
that the discovery of relevant components of our genetic structure is
much more involved than identifying a half dozen genes, but whatever,
it is heritable. Much more than just intelligence is inherited.
Clearly, many African Americans excel at athletics, and I sometimes
wonder if some Black men are gifted with a very large dose of
charisma.
Gary
2018-07-10 11:32:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:18:29 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
The Imperial College report upon which this article is based is yet
another twin study and I have explained to you several times that this
does not account for what happens in-utero.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12061787/Intelligence-genes-discovered-by-scientists.html
Your problem with twins studies is not because they are ineffective,
but rather because they prove heritability -- which your politics will
not permit you to accept.
"Twins Separated at Birth Reveal Staggering Influence of Genetics"
https://www.livescience.com/47288-twin-study-importance-of-genetics.html
"Twin Studies: A Unique Epidemiological Tool" ...
"Scholars have long studied twins to address the “nature and nurture”
question; however, opposing “nature” to “nurture” is misleading. Genes
combine with the environment to produce complex human traits. The
importance of genes suggested by earlier twin studies has often been
confirmed by later molecular genetic studies. Therefore, twin studies
will continue to inform mankind about the relative importance of genes
and the environment on traits in ways that no other type of research
ever can. Though they have received much criticism, the advancement of
statistical techniques (such as structural equation modeling) and the
implementation of additional controls have allayed some of the
concerns, if not all. The original twin study design has expanded to
include studies of twins' extended families, longitudinal studies, and
other variations. Some of these variations may allow researchers to
address previous limitations also. Many molecular genetic studies have
shown the usefulness of twin studies as an exploratory tool, whether
or not the assumptions of equal environments and assortative mating
are exactly met.
Therefore, twin studies will continue to be an important tool along
with emerging genome and molecular research methods in shedding light
on various aspects of human genetics and on how environmental factors
and genetics combine to create human traits and behaviors."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4919929/
Your argument against twins studies is the same old clap trap -- our
path in life is not greatly influenced by our DNA, but rather by some
mysterious force during gestation -- perhaps a virus, nutrition, or
whatever. If the remarkable difference between the intelligence of
Ashkenazi Jews/East Asians and their fellow humans of Sub-Saharan
African descent, raised in the same country and the same city,
depended on these environmental factors, then where is the study to
prove it? There is none. Face it -- our genetics determines a great
deal -- not just obvious attributes such as skin color, but
personality, athletic ability, stature, susceptibility to disease,
intelligence, and innumerable other factors. I actually feel sorry for
you. You don't understand that you are not a scientist, but above all
else a man guided by his religion -- politics.
"Exploratory" is the relevant word in the above. I have no problem with
continued research, but that research is also subject to criticism and
twin studies only address the nature vs. nurture argument after birth.
What remains is the question of what happens before birth when the
development of the brain happens. That is not politics, but it is
science. Your selective use of citations screams politics, by contrast,
as if the science was settled. The science is far from being settled
and obstruction of continuing research because of right wing political
opposition is more distasteful to me than for you.
I agree that the science is far from settled -- but, as East Asians
and Ashkenazi Jews move about the planet we see a consistency in
genetic attributes. They bring their genes and intelligence with them,
and the DNA of their children is as equally at home in New York, as it
would be in Shanghai, Seoul, or Tel Aviv. The structure of the body
and the brain is highly complex. It is becoming increasingly clear
that the discovery of relevant components of our genetic structure is
much more involved than identifying a half dozen genes, but whatever,
it is heritable. Much more than just intelligence is inherited.
Clearly, many African Americans excel at athletics, and I sometimes
wonder if some Black men are gifted with a very large dose of
charisma.
All that "charisma" is what made them so popular down on the
old plantations. As Jefferson once said to Washington --

"George, you got the most charismatic bunch of cotton
pickers I ever did see. They so happy!"
El Castor
2018-07-10 17:55:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gary
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:18:29 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
The Imperial College report upon which this article is based is yet
another twin study and I have explained to you several times that this
does not account for what happens in-utero.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12061787/Intelligence-genes-discovered-by-scientists.html
Your problem with twins studies is not because they are ineffective,
but rather because they prove heritability -- which your politics will
not permit you to accept.
"Twins Separated at Birth Reveal Staggering Influence of Genetics"
https://www.livescience.com/47288-twin-study-importance-of-genetics.html
"Twin Studies: A Unique Epidemiological Tool" ...
"Scholars have long studied twins to address the “nature and nurture”
question; however, opposing “nature” to “nurture” is misleading. Genes
combine with the environment to produce complex human traits. The
importance of genes suggested by earlier twin studies has often been
confirmed by later molecular genetic studies. Therefore, twin studies
will continue to inform mankind about the relative importance of genes
and the environment on traits in ways that no other type of research
ever can. Though they have received much criticism, the advancement of
statistical techniques (such as structural equation modeling) and the
implementation of additional controls have allayed some of the
concerns, if not all. The original twin study design has expanded to
include studies of twins' extended families, longitudinal studies, and
other variations. Some of these variations may allow researchers to
address previous limitations also. Many molecular genetic studies have
shown the usefulness of twin studies as an exploratory tool, whether
or not the assumptions of equal environments and assortative mating
are exactly met.
Therefore, twin studies will continue to be an important tool along
with emerging genome and molecular research methods in shedding light
on various aspects of human genetics and on how environmental factors
and genetics combine to create human traits and behaviors."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4919929/
Your argument against twins studies is the same old clap trap -- our
path in life is not greatly influenced by our DNA, but rather by some
mysterious force during gestation -- perhaps a virus, nutrition, or
whatever. If the remarkable difference between the intelligence of
Ashkenazi Jews/East Asians and their fellow humans of Sub-Saharan
African descent, raised in the same country and the same city,
depended on these environmental factors, then where is the study to
prove it? There is none. Face it -- our genetics determines a great
deal -- not just obvious attributes such as skin color, but
personality, athletic ability, stature, susceptibility to disease,
intelligence, and innumerable other factors. I actually feel sorry for
you. You don't understand that you are not a scientist, but above all
else a man guided by his religion -- politics.
"Exploratory" is the relevant word in the above. I have no problem with
continued research, but that research is also subject to criticism and
twin studies only address the nature vs. nurture argument after birth.
What remains is the question of what happens before birth when the
development of the brain happens. That is not politics, but it is
science. Your selective use of citations screams politics, by contrast,
as if the science was settled. The science is far from being settled
and obstruction of continuing research because of right wing political
opposition is more distasteful to me than for you.
I agree that the science is far from settled -- but, as East Asians
and Ashkenazi Jews move about the planet we see a consistency in
genetic attributes. They bring their genes and intelligence with them,
and the DNA of their children is as equally at home in New York, as it
would be in Shanghai, Seoul, or Tel Aviv. The structure of the body
and the brain is highly complex. It is becoming increasingly clear
that the discovery of relevant components of our genetic structure is
much more involved than identifying a half dozen genes, but whatever,
it is heritable. Much more than just intelligence is inherited.
Clearly, many African Americans excel at athletics, and I sometimes
wonder if some Black men are gifted with a very large dose of
charisma.
All that "charisma" is what made them so popular down on the
old plantations. As Jefferson once said to Washington --
"George, you got the most charismatic bunch of cotton
pickers I ever did see. They so happy!"
Morgan Freeman oozes more charisma than a barrel of White guys. Black
women, on the other hand. Have you ever approached a fat Black woman
sitting on the other side of a pane of glass with a hole in it? Ouch!

In an African tribal society, survival of any gender probably was
enhanced if you could run and jump. A little charm might be useful
when all the guys were armed with spears, and women who didn't want to
be left pregnant and alone, probably had to be tough as nails. I'm
sure Darwin would understand. Different set of survival skills than
required of a Bucharest banker.
Gary
2018-07-10 18:48:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:55:09 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:18:29 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
"Exploratory" is the relevant word in the above. I have no problem with
continued research, but that research is also subject to criticism and
twin studies only address the nature vs. nurture argument after birth.
What remains is the question of what happens before birth when the
development of the brain happens. That is not politics, but it is
science. Your selective use of citations screams politics, by contrast,
as if the science was settled. The science is far from being settled
and obstruction of continuing research because of right wing political
opposition is more distasteful to me than for you.
I agree that the science is far from settled -- but, as East Asians
and Ashkenazi Jews move about the planet we see a consistency in
genetic attributes. They bring their genes and intelligence with them,
and the DNA of their children is as equally at home in New York, as it
would be in Shanghai, Seoul, or Tel Aviv. The structure of the body
and the brain is highly complex. It is becoming increasingly clear
that the discovery of relevant components of our genetic structure is
much more involved than identifying a half dozen genes, but whatever,
it is heritable. Much more than just intelligence is inherited.
Clearly, many African Americans excel at athletics, and I sometimes
wonder if some Black men are gifted with a very large dose of
charisma.
All that "charisma" is what made them so popular down on the
old plantations. As Jefferson once said to Washington --
"George, you got the most charismatic bunch of cotton
pickers I ever did see. They so happy!"
Morgan Freeman oozes more charisma than a barrel of White guys.
I use to like Freeman a long time ago. But I can't recall
why. I did run across a quote by him that shows he is very
intelligent.
--------------------------------------------------------
In 2005, Freeman criticized the celebration of Black History
Month, saying, "I don't want a black history month. Black
history is American history."
--------------------------------------------------------
Post by El Castor
Black
women, on the other hand. Have you ever approached a fat Black woman
sitting on the other side of a pane of glass with a hole in it? Ouch!
No, thank goodness :-)
Post by El Castor
In an African tribal society, survival of any gender probably was
enhanced if you could run and jump. A little charm might be useful
when all the guys were armed with spears, and women who didn't want to
be left pregnant and alone, probably had to be tough as nails. I'm
sure Darwin would understand. Different set of survival skills than
required of a Bucharest banker.
There's a TV commercial on that pretends to trace a black
woman's ancestry back to her black female ancestor in Africa
-- who ruled the tribe.

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/dVGt/ancestry-courtneys-story

To me it has a lot of comedy value. After all -- I spent
about ten years looking up genealogy as a hobby. Nothing I
ever found in Africa -- resembles that commercial. But I do
watch it because -- I get a good laugh.

However -- I would not argue that African women were more
intelligent than their males.
El Castor
2018-07-10 19:13:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gary
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:55:09 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:18:29 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
"Exploratory" is the relevant word in the above. I have no problem with
continued research, but that research is also subject to criticism and
twin studies only address the nature vs. nurture argument after birth.
What remains is the question of what happens before birth when the
development of the brain happens. That is not politics, but it is
science. Your selective use of citations screams politics, by contrast,
as if the science was settled. The science is far from being settled
and obstruction of continuing research because of right wing political
opposition is more distasteful to me than for you.
I agree that the science is far from settled -- but, as East Asians
and Ashkenazi Jews move about the planet we see a consistency in
genetic attributes. They bring their genes and intelligence with them,
and the DNA of their children is as equally at home in New York, as it
would be in Shanghai, Seoul, or Tel Aviv. The structure of the body
and the brain is highly complex. It is becoming increasingly clear
that the discovery of relevant components of our genetic structure is
much more involved than identifying a half dozen genes, but whatever,
it is heritable. Much more than just intelligence is inherited.
Clearly, many African Americans excel at athletics, and I sometimes
wonder if some Black men are gifted with a very large dose of
charisma.
All that "charisma" is what made them so popular down on the
old plantations. As Jefferson once said to Washington --
"George, you got the most charismatic bunch of cotton
pickers I ever did see. They so happy!"
Morgan Freeman oozes more charisma than a barrel of White guys.
I use to like Freeman a long time ago. But I can't recall
why. I did run across a quote by him that shows he is very
intelligent.
Freeman is one of my favorite TV personalities. Lately he has been
doing a lot of narration -- mainly science based programming, but I
think he's close to retirement, if not already there. Another
charismatic Black guy, Bill Cosby. Maybe a little too charismatic with
the ladies. (-8 Then there is Steve Harvey -- three TV shows
simultaneously. Must be a record.
Post by Gary
In 2005, Freeman criticized the celebration of Black History
Month, saying, "I don't want a black history month. Black
history is American history."
--------------------------------------------------------
Post by El Castor
Black
women, on the other hand. Have you ever approached a fat Black woman
sitting on the other side of a pane of glass with a hole in it? Ouch!
No, thank goodness :-)
Post by El Castor
In an African tribal society, survival of any gender probably was
enhanced if you could run and jump. A little charm might be useful
when all the guys were armed with spears, and women who didn't want to
be left pregnant and alone, probably had to be tough as nails. I'm
sure Darwin would understand. Different set of survival skills than
required of a Bucharest banker.
There's a TV commercial on that pretends to trace a black
woman's ancestry back to her black female ancestor in Africa
-- who ruled the tribe.
https://www.ispot.tv/ad/dVGt/ancestry-courtneys-story
To me it has a lot of comedy value. After all -- I spent
about ten years looking up genealogy as a hobby. Nothing I
ever found in Africa -- resembles that commercial. But I do
watch it because -- I get a good laugh.
However -- I would not argue that African women were more
intelligent than their males.
Not more intelligent -- meaner and more assertive.
Gary
2018-07-10 19:47:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:13:33 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:55:09 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:18:29 -0700, El Castor
Post by El Castor
I agree that the science is far from settled -- but, as East Asians
and Ashkenazi Jews move about the planet we see a consistency in
genetic attributes. They bring their genes and intelligence with them,
and the DNA of their children is as equally at home in New York, as it
would be in Shanghai, Seoul, or Tel Aviv. The structure of the body
and the brain is highly complex. It is becoming increasingly clear
that the discovery of relevant components of our genetic structure is
much more involved than identifying a half dozen genes, but whatever,
it is heritable. Much more than just intelligence is inherited.
Clearly, many African Americans excel at athletics, and I sometimes
wonder if some Black men are gifted with a very large dose of
charisma.
All that "charisma" is what made them so popular down on the
old plantations. As Jefferson once said to Washington --
"George, you got the most charismatic bunch of cotton
pickers I ever did see. They so happy!"
Morgan Freeman oozes more charisma than a barrel of White guys.
I use to like Freeman a long time ago. But I can't recall
why. I did run across a quote by him that shows he is very
intelligent.
Freeman is one of my favorite TV personalities. Lately he has been
doing a lot of narration -- mainly science based programming, but I
think he's close to retirement, if not already there. Another
charismatic Black guy, Bill Cosby. Maybe a little too charismatic with
the ladies. (-8 Then there is Steve Harvey -- three TV shows
I don't watch much TV these days, so maybe that is why
I've missed Freeman. I never cared much for Cosby (how
could I love him as much as he loves himself?)

But I do like Steve Harvey. I enjoy watching some of the
game shows on Game Show Network (GSN). I watch him almost
every weekday afternoon -- on Family Feud. I learned
something about Steve last week that really surprised me.
He was born in Welch, West Virginia. My wife (from VA) has
relatives who were born near Welch. I now like Steve even
more :-)

<snip>
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
To me it has a lot of comedy value. After all -- I spent
about ten years looking up genealogy as a hobby. Nothing I
ever found in Africa -- resembles that commercial. But I do
watch it because -- I get a good laugh.
However -- I would not argue that African women were more
intelligent than their males.
Not more intelligent -- meaner and more assertive.
Really ? I've not been around any in many years. I grew
up near several black women and really liked them.

GLOBALIST
2018-07-07 12:04:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
By Ellen Barry & Martin Sorensen, July 1, 2018, NY Times
COPENHAGEN — When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she
and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law.
Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by
the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish
newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from
their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time,
for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions
of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could
result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are
free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age
of six.
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life
in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families
there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they
should be compelled.
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to
the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population.
Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where
immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense
concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
Politicians’ description of the ghettos has become increasingly
sinister. In his annual New Year’s speech, Prime Minister Lars Lokke
Rasmussen warned that ghettos could “reach out their tentacles onto
the streets” by spreading violence, and that because of ghettos,
“cracks have appeared on the map of Denmark.” Politicians who once
used the word “integration” now call frankly for “assimilation.”
That tough approach is embodied in the “ghetto package.” Of 22
proposals presented by the government in early March, most have been
agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, and more will be subject to a
vote in the fall.
Some are punitive: One measure under consideration would allow courts
to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in
one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’
income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal
convictions and “non-Western background.” Another would impose a
four-year prison sentence on immigrant parents who force their
children to make extended visits to their country of origin —
described here as “re-education trips” —in that way damaging their
“schooling, language and well-being.” Another would allow local
authorities to increase their monitoring and surveillance of “ghetto”
families.
Some proposals have been rejected as too radical, like one from the
far-right Danish People’s Party that would confine “ghetto children”
to their homes after 8 p.m. (Challenged on how this would be enforced,
Martin Henriksen, the chairman of Parliament’s integration committee,
suggested in earnest that young people in these areas could be fitted
with electronic ankle bracelets.)
At this summer’s Folkemodet, an annual political gathering on the
island of Bornholm, the justice minister, Soren Pape Poulsen, shrugged
off the rights-based objection.
“Some will wail and say, ‘We’re not equal before the law in this
country,’ and ‘Certain groups are punished harder,’ but that’s
nonsense,” he said, adding that the increased penalties would affect
only people who break the law.
To those claiming the measures single out Muslims, he said: “That’s
nonsense and rubbish. To me this is about, no matter who lives in
these areas and who they believe in, they have to profess to the
values required to have a good life in Denmark.”
Yildiz Akdogan, a Social Democrat whose parliamentary constituency
includes Tingbjerg, which is classified as a ghetto, said Danes had
become so desensitized to harsh rhetoric about immigrants that they no
longer register the negative connotation of the word “ghetto” and its
echoes of Nazi Germany’s separation of Jews.
“We call them ‘ghetto children, ghetto parents,’ it’s so crazy,” Ms.
Akdogan said. “It is becoming a mainstream word, which is so
dangerous. People who know a little about history, our European
not-so-nice period, we know what the word ‘ghetto’ is associated
with.”
She pulled out her phone to display a Facebook post from a right-wing
politician, railing furiously at a Danish supermarket for selling a
cake reading “Eid Mubarak,” for the Muslim holiday of Eid. “Right now,
facts don’t matter so much, it’s only feelings,” she said. “This is
the dangerous part of it.”
For their part, many residents of Danish “ghettos” say they would move
if they could afford to live elsewhere. On a recent afternoon, Ms.
Naassan was sitting with her four sisters in Mjolnerparken, a
four-story, red brick housing complex that is, by the numbers, one of
Denmark’s worst ghettos: forty-three percent of its residents are
unemployed, 82 percent come from “non-Western backgrounds,” 53 percent
have scant education and 51 percent have relatively low earnings.
The Naassan sisters wondered aloud why they were subject to these new
measures. The children of Lebanese refugees, they speak Danish without
an accent and converse with their children in Danish; their children,
they complain, speak so little Arabic that they can barely communicate
with their grandparents. Years ago, growing up in Jutland, in
Denmark’s west, they rarely encountered any anti-Muslim feeling, said
Sara, 32.
“Maybe this is what they always thought, and now it’s out in the
open,” she said. “Danish politics is just about Muslims now. They want
us to get more assimilated or get out. I don’t know when they will be
satisfied with us.”
Rokhaia, her due date fast approaching, flared with anger at the
Already, she said, her daughter was being taught so much about
Christmas in kindergarten that she came home begging for presents from
Santa Claus.
“Nobody should tell me whether or how my daughter should go to
preschool. Or when,” she said. “I’d rather lose my benefits than
submit to force.”
Barwaqo Jama Hussein, 18, a Somali refugee, noted that many immigrant
families, including her own, had been settled in “ghetto”
neighborhoods by the government. She moved to Denmark when she was 5
and has lived in the Tingbjerg ghetto area since she was 13. She said
the politicians’ description of “parallel societies” simply did not
fit her, or Tingbjerg.
“It hurts that they don’t see us as equal people,” she said. “We
actually live in Danish society. We follow the rules, we go to school.
The only thing we don’t do is eat pork.”
About 12 miles south of the city, in the middle-class suburb of Greve,
though, voters gushed with approval over the new laws.
“They spend too much Danish money,” said Dorthe Pedersen, a
hairdresser, daubing chestnut dye on a client’s hairline. “We pay
their rent, their clothing, their food, and then they come in broken
Danish and say, ‘We can’t work because we’ve got a pain.’”
Her client, Anni Larsen, told a story about being invited by a Turkish
immigrant to their child’s wedding and being scandalized to discover
that the guests were separated by gender and seated in different
rooms. “I think there were only 10 people from Denmark,” she said,
appalled. “If you ask me, I think they shouldn’t have invited us.”
Anette Jacobsen, 64, a retired pharmacist’s assistant, said she so
treasured Denmark’s welfare system, which had provided her four
children with free education and health care, that she felt a surge of
gratitude every time she paid her taxes, more than 50 percent of her
yearly income. As for immigrants using the system, she said, “There is
always a cat door for someone to sneak in.”
“Morally, they should be grateful to be allowed into our system, which
was built over generations,” she said.
Her husband, Jesper, a former merchant sailor whose ship once docked
in Lebanon, said he had watched laborers there being shot for laziness
and replaced by truckloads of new workers gathered in the countryside.
“I think they are 300 to 400 years behind us,” Jesper said.
“Their culture doesn’t fit here,” Anette said.
The new hard-edge push to force Muslims to integrate struck both of
them as positive. “The young people will see what it is to be Danish
and they will not be like their parents,” Jesper said.
“The grandmothers will die sometime,” Anette said. “They are the ones
resisting change.”
By focusing heavily on the collective cost of supporting refugee and
immigrant families, the Danish People’s Party has won many voters away
from the center-left Social Democrats, who had long been seen as the
defenders of the welfare state. With a general election approaching
next year, the Social Democrat party has shifted to the right on
immigration, saying tougher measures are necessary to protect the
welfare state.
Nearly 87 percent of Denmark’s 5.7 million people are of Danish
descent, with immigrants and their descendants accounting for the
rest. Two-thirds of the immigrants are from non-Western backgrounds, a
group that swelled with the waves of Afghan, Iraqi and Syrian refugees
crossing Europe.
Critics would say “the state cannot force children away from their
parents in the daytime, that’s disproportionate use of force,” said
Rune Lykkeberg, the editor in chief of Dagbladet Information, a
left-liberal daily newspaper. “But the Social Democrats say, ‘We give
people money, and we want something for this money.’ This is a system
of rights and obligations.”
Danes have a high level of trust in the state, including as a central
shaper of children’s ideology and beliefs, he said. “The Anglo-Saxon
conception is that man is free in nature, and then comes the state”
constraining that freedom, he said. “Our conception of freedom is the
opposite, that man is only free in society.”
“You could say, of course, parents have the right to bring up their
own kids,” he added. “We would say they do not have the right to
destroy the future freedom of their children.”
Of course, he added, “There is always a strong sense of authoritarian
risk.”
Ms. Hussain, the high school student from Tingbjerg, is accustomed to
anti-immigrant talk surging ahead of elections, but says this year it
is harsher than she can ever remember.
“If you create new kinds of laws that apply to only one part of
society, then you can keep adding to them,” she said. “It will turn
into the parallel society they’re so afraid of. They will create it
themselves.”
Correction: July 3, 2018
An earlier version of this article gave an incorrect estimate of the
number of Muslims in Denmark. There are half a million non-Western
immigrants and descendants; the Danish government does not provide
statistics on religious groups.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html
Very good idea. If you make no attempt to assimilate
and learn our language and culture, your welfare should
be cut
Heirloom
2018-07-07 12:08:46 UTC
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Post by GLOBALIST
Very good idea. If you make no attempt to assimilate
and learn our language and culture, your welfare should
be cut
Yeah, and you should be the first one to have it cut because you haven't
a clue about English or culture. It's amazing you can ever feed yourself.
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