Discussion:
The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism
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d***@agent.com
2018-01-18 06:38:03 UTC
Permalink
The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism

The Nordic model is far from socialist
by Corey Iacono, Feb 25, 2016, fee.org

Bernie Sanders has single-handedly brought the term “democratic
socialism” into the contemporary American political lexicon and shaken
millions of Millennials out of their apathy towards politics. Even if
he does not win the Democratic nomination, his impact on American
politics will be evident for years to come.

Sanders has convinced a great number of people that things have been
going very badly for the great majority of people in the United
States, for a very long time. His solution? America must embrace
“democratic socialism,” a socioeconomic system that seemingly works
very well in the Scandinavian countries, like Sweden, which are, by
some measures, better off than the United States.

Democratic socialism purports to combine majority rule with state
control of the means of production. However, the Scandinavian
countries are not good examples of democratic socialism in action
because they aren’t socialist.

In the Scandinavian countries, like all other developed nations, the
means of production are primarily owned by private individuals, not
the community or the government, and resources are allocated to their
respective uses by the market, not government or community planning.

While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a
generous social safety net and universal healthcare, an extensive
welfare state is not the same thing as socialism. What Sanders and his
supporters confuse as socialism is actually social democracy, a system
in which the government aims to promote the public welfare through
heavy taxation and spending, within the framework of a capitalist
economy. This is what the Scandinavians practice.

In response to Americans frequently referring to his country as
socialist, the prime minister of Denmark recently remarked in a
lecture at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government,

I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some
sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear.
Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market
economy.

The Scandinavians embrace a brand of free-market capitalism that
exists in conjunction with a large welfare state, known as the “Nordic
Model,” which includes many policies that democratic socialists would
likely abhor.

For example, democratic socialists are generally opponents of global
capitalism and free trade, but the Scandinavian countries have fully
embraced these things. The Economist magazine describes the
Scandinavian countries as “stout free-traders who resist the
temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies.” Perhaps
this is why Denmark, Norway, and Sweden rank among the most globalized
countries in the entire world. These countries all also rank in the
top 10 easiest countries to do business in.

How do supporters of Bernie Sanders feel about the minimum wage? You
will find no such government-imposed floors on labor in Sweden,
Norway, or Denmark. Instead, minimum wages are decided by
collective-bargaining agreements between unions and employers; they
typically vary on an occupational or industrial basis. Union-imposed
wages lock out the least skilled and do their own damage to an
economy, but such a decentralized system is still arguably a much
better way of doing things than having the central government set a
one-size fits all wage policy that covers every occupation nationwide.

In a move that would be considered radically pro-capitalist by young
Americans who #FeelTheBern, Sweden adopted a universal school choice
system in the 1990s that is nearly identical to the system proposed by
libertarian economist Milton Friedman his 1955 essay, “The Role of
Government in Education.”

In practice, the Swedish system involves local governments allowing
families to use public funds, in the form of vouchers, to finance
their child’s education at a private school, including schools run by
the dreaded for-profit corporation.

Far from being a failure, as the socialists thought it would be,
Sweden's reforms were a considerable success. According to a study
published by the Institute for the Study of Labor, the expansion of
private schooling and competition brought about by the Swedish
free-market educational reforms “improved average educational
performance both at the end of compulsory school and in the long run
in terms of high school grades, university attendance, and years of
schooling.”

Overall, it is clear that the Scandinavian countries are not in fact
archetypes of successful democratic socialism. Sanders has convinced a
great deal of people that socialism is something it is not, and he has
used the Scandinavian countries to prove its efficacy, while ignoring
the many ways they deviate, sometimes dramatically, from what Sanders
himself advocates.

Corey Iacono is a student at the University of Rhode Island majoring
in pharmaceutical science and minoring in economics. He is a FEE 2016
Thorpe Fellow.

https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism/
rumpelstiltskin
2018-01-18 08:14:43 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 01:38:03 -0500, ***@agent.com wrote:

<snip>
Post by d***@agent.com
While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a
generous social safety net and universal healthcare,
<snip>


If academics want to fight about what socialism is or is not,
nobody else cares as long as "their countries provide things
like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare."

Scandinavia does that. The USA doesn't.
d***@agent.com
2018-01-19 02:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by d***@agent.com
While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a
generous social safety net and universal healthcare,
<snip>
If academics want to fight about what socialism is or is not,
nobody else cares as long as "their countries provide things
like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare."
Scandinavia does that. The USA doesn't.
The USA polices the world. It's a /World/ safety net!
rumpelstiltskin
2018-01-19 02:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by d***@agent.com
While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a
generous social safety net and universal healthcare,
<snip>
If academics want to fight about what socialism is or is not,
nobody else cares as long as "their countries provide things
like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare."
Scandinavia does that. The USA doesn't.
The USA polices the world. It's a /World/ safety net!
Oh my gosh. Another facet emerges, a rather
unexpected one, to add to not wanting people to
get flu shots. It's time to put you back in the kill
file. Bye.
me
2018-01-19 03:28:43 UTC
Permalink

If academics want to fight about what socialism is or is not,
nobody else cares as long as "their countries provide things
like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare."

Scandinavia does that. The USA doesn't.


So does bankrupt Greece.
See https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/01/patients-dying-greece-public-health-meltdown
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/world/europe/as-welfare-state-collapses-greeks-suffer-and-fear-future.html
What would academics say?

http://www.endit.info/how.shtml
El Castor
2018-01-19 03:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by d***@agent.com
While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a
generous social safety net and universal healthcare,
<snip>
If academics want to fight about what socialism is or is not,
nobody else cares as long as "their countries provide things
like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare."
Scandinavia does that. The USA doesn't.
So move to Sweden, get your free stuff, and quit bitching. Better yet,
go home to the UK. You aren't a US citizen, but you apparently expect
those of us who are, to support you.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-01-19 07:38:49 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 19:49:59 -0800, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by d***@agent.com
While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a
generous social safety net and universal healthcare,
<snip>
If academics want to fight about what socialism is or is not,
nobody else cares as long as "their countries provide things
like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare."
Scandinavia does that. The USA doesn't.
So move to Sweden, get your free stuff, and quit bitching. Better yet,
go home to the UK. You aren't a US citizen, but you apparently expect
those of us who are, to support you.
OK, instead of substituting "pompous twit" this time, I'll
switch to what I had originally written: "asshole". How the
hell are you supporting me, you jerk? I pay my taxes and
never dodge, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if you dodge.

Let me also repeat what I wrote elsewhere, that even
though I'm not an American citizen, I think I'm a better
"American" than you are: very decisively. I support the
values this country "should" hold. You don't.
El Castor
2018-01-19 22:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 19:49:59 -0800, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by d***@agent.com
While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a
generous social safety net and universal healthcare,
<snip>
If academics want to fight about what socialism is or is not,
nobody else cares as long as "their countries provide things
like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare."
Scandinavia does that. The USA doesn't.
So move to Sweden, get your free stuff, and quit bitching. Better yet,
go home to the UK. You aren't a US citizen, but you apparently expect
those of us who are, to support you.
OK, instead of substituting "pompous twit" this time, I'll
switch to what I had originally written: "asshole". How the
hell are you supporting me, you jerk? I pay my taxes and
never dodge, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if you dodge.
Let me also repeat what I wrote elsewhere, that even
though I'm not an American citizen, I think I'm a better
"American" than you are: very decisively. I support the
values this country "should" hold. You don't.
You complain that the US welfare state does not supply as much free
stuff as those marvelous Scandinavians, so what else should I think?
You want more free stuff. Right?

A few things you may not have considered. The welfare states of
Scandinavia have a much less "diverse" population. If they had our 40
million African Americans with their high unemployment rate, 72%
illegitimacy, and a flood of frequently illiterate and poorly educated
Hispanic immigrants, they might find it more difficult to provide all
the freebies. And guess what, they are. The flood of Muslim welfare
seekers is overwhelming their welfare states.
rumpelstiltskin
2018-01-20 02:47:12 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 14:03:39 -0800, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by rumpelstiltskin
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 19:49:59 -0800, El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
Post by d***@agent.com
While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a
generous social safety net and universal healthcare,
<snip>
If academics want to fight about what socialism is or is not,
nobody else cares as long as "their countries provide things
like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare."
Scandinavia does that. The USA doesn't.
So move to Sweden, get your free stuff, and quit bitching. Better yet,
go home to the UK. You aren't a US citizen, but you apparently expect
those of us who are, to support you.
OK, instead of substituting "pompous twit" this time, I'll
switch to what I had originally written: "asshole". How the
hell are you supporting me, you jerk? I pay my taxes and
never dodge, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if you dodge.
Let me also repeat what I wrote elsewhere, that even
though I'm not an American citizen, I think I'm a better
"American" than you are: very decisively. I support the
values this country "should" hold. You don't.
You complain that the US welfare state does not supply as much free
stuff as those marvelous Scandinavians, so what else should I think?
You want more free stuff. Right?
It's not free. We the people already paid for it.
Welfare, including your and my SS, doesn't fall out
of the sky. It's the consequence of a properly and
honestly constructed government, in which field,
especially the "honesty" part (given all the
corporate favouritism and corruption in the USA),
we are regrettably far less "evolved' than
Scandinavia. They are indeed marvellous over
there. I wish we were the same.

Maybe you'll launch into the expense of our
military supremacy now. STOP MAKING WAR
FOR INEFFECTIVE OR DOWNRIGHT CORRUPT
REASONS is part of the answer to that.
Post by El Castor
A few things you may not have considered. The welfare states of
Scandinavia have a much less "diverse" population. If they had our 40
million African Americans with their high unemployment rate, 72%
illegitimacy, and a flood of frequently illiterate and poorly educated
Hispanic immigrants, they might find it more difficult to provide all
the freebies. And guess what, they are. The flood of Muslim welfare
seekers is overwhelming their welfare states.
That's true, and is most of why you and I both
oppose uncontrolled immigration, in my case at
least including the so-called "Dreamers".
me
2018-01-20 03:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 14:03:39 -0800, El Castor
...
It's not free. We the people already paid for it.
Welfare, including your and my SS, doesn't fall out
of the sky. It's the consequence of a properly and
honestly constructed government, in which field,
especially the "honesty" part (given all the
corporate favouritism and corruption in the USA),
we are regrettably far less "evolved' than
Scandinavia. They are indeed marvellous over
there. I wish we were the same.
Maybe you'll launch into the expense of our
military supremacy now. STOP MAKING WAR
FOR INEFFECTIVE OR DOWNRIGHT CORRUPT
REASONS is part of the answer to that.
...
http://www.endit.info/Benefits.shtml

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