Discussion:
Are America's Glory Days Over?
(too old to reply)
mg
2009-02-24 03:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
predicting the future:

"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.

Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."

http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aj9YrEC5DB6A&refer=home
Evelyn
2009-02-24 04:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aj9YrEC5DB6A&refe...
This is what people did during the depression.

My father told me that he lived through it. Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.

Evelyn
Gaved
2009-02-24 04:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aj9YrEC5DB6A&refe...
This is what people did during the depression.

My father told me that he lived through it. Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.

Evelyn
Thanks Evelyn,
I am backing you up, sounds just like the 1930s, except for guns which were
used mainly to shoot game to eat
rather than people.
We might even go back to working 48 hour weeks!
Lorna
mg
2009-02-24 15:08:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evelyn
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhtt......
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.

She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.
Evelyn
2009-02-24 16:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhtt......
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser. Well, my father is a lot like that. It scarred
him for life. He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man. The depression changed him forever.

Evelyn
mg
2009-02-24 17:39:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhtt......
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser.   Well, my father is a lot like that.   It scarred
him for life.  He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man.   The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and in many cases the causes are the same:
Greed and and two-bit ideology. Yet we keep repeating the same
mistakes.
J***@gmail.com
2009-02-24 19:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhtt......
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser.   Well, my father is a lot like that.   It scarred
him for life.  He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man.   The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and . . . .
Lurking in my mind is concern that an even greater threat, terrorism,
is always there and the impact will be more catastrophic and come
sooner then later.

I keep begging my wife to please retire and let us get to hell out of
DC before we see some bio or other attack occur. We are going to get
that attack and it will be swift. The leadership I have seen thus far
tells me that is the second in the one/two sequence that we will have
grave difficulty handling. Current leadership does not care at all
about terrorism. First speech from top Justice guy was on his biggest
priority . . . . . I and all white people are cowards because we won't
engage in some self-destructive process on race. President sets up
sequence that will certainly release and empower the most dangerous
people we have encountered in this terror threat.

Just close your eyes and recall those intial moments on September 11th
when you heard and saw the new. I can remember driving along 95 by
the Pentagon and seeing smoke billowing out of the roof and see all
the firetrucks, ambulances, crying people, and confusion and recall
days after while I worked in volunteer mode there. There are things
worse then what we face now and they are real. These are things that
concern me although they are not included in our discussion of the
economy.
Evelyn
2009-02-24 19:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@gmail.com
Post by mg
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhtt......
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser.   Well, my father is a lot like that.   It scarred
him for life.  He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man.   The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and . . . .
Lurking in my mind is concern that an even greater threat, terrorism,
is always there and the impact will be more catastrophic and come
sooner then later.  
I keep begging my wife to please retire and let us get to hell out of
DC before we see some bio or other attack occur.  We are going to get
that attack and it will be swift.  The leadership I have seen thus far
tells me that is the second in the one/two sequence that we will have
grave difficulty handling.  Current leadership does not care at all
about terrorism.  First speech from top Justice guy was on his biggest
priority . . . . . I and all white people are cowards because we won't
engage in some self-destructive process on race.  President sets up
sequence that will certainly release and empower the most dangerous
people we have encountered in this terror threat.
Just close your eyes and recall those intial moments on September 11th
when you heard and saw the new.  I can remember driving along 95 by
the Pentagon and seeing smoke billowing out of the roof and see all
the firetrucks, ambulances, crying people, and confusion and recall
days after while I worked in volunteer mode there.  There are things
worse then what we face now and they are real.  These are things that
concern me although they are not included in our discussion of the
economy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Jim, we cannot live with such fear in our hearts. It will kill you a
lot faster than cholesterol. The muslim threat is very real and I
agree with you that there may be some bad stuff on the horizon. We
do indeed live in "interesting" times. But worrying will not change
it one iota.

We need to realize that natural disasters and unnatural ones can
always happen. Last week people were killed in their beds by freak
storms. Tornadoes, Tsunamis, Yellowstone being a super volcano,
asteroids destroying all life on earth, hurricanes, floods, plane
crashes, the list goes on.

To dwell or not to dwell in fear is our own choice!

At least Obama is not aiming to piss the bad guys off even more with
threats of war, and is attempting to communicate. Hillary is a smart
woman and tough too. She is in a good job suited to her skills. We
can hope for improvement through diplomacy. But there are never any
guarantees in life.

There are things you can do and things you can't. You should take
your retirement if you want to. You should move if you want to.
This is a very good time to buy a house. All the realtors have full
offerings of bargain basement priced goodies.

Spring is coming. Nothing is more life affirming..... except maybe
new grandbabies. I intend to enjoy both to the max. It is a
conscious choice.

Evelyn
Thumper
2009-02-24 20:37:07 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:39:36 -0800 (PST), Evelyn
Post by Evelyn
Post by J***@gmail.com
Post by mg
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhtt......
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser.   Well, my father is a lot like that.   It scarred
him for life.  He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man.   The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and . . . .
Lurking in my mind is concern that an even greater threat, terrorism,
is always there and the impact will be more catastrophic and come
sooner then later.  
I keep begging my wife to please retire and let us get to hell out of
DC before we see some bio or other attack occur.  We are going to get
that attack and it will be swift.  The leadership I have seen thus far
tells me that is the second in the one/two sequence that we will have
grave difficulty handling.  Current leadership does not care at all
about terrorism.  First speech from top Justice guy was on his biggest
priority . . . . . I and all white people are cowards because we won't
engage in some self-destructive process on race.  President sets up
sequence that will certainly release and empower the most dangerous
people we have encountered in this terror threat.
Just close your eyes and recall those intial moments on September 11th
when you heard and saw the new.  I can remember driving along 95 by
the Pentagon and seeing smoke billowing out of the roof and see all
the firetrucks, ambulances, crying people, and confusion and recall
days after while I worked in volunteer mode there.  There are things
worse then what we face now and they are real.  These are things that
concern me although they are not included in our discussion of the
economy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Jim, we cannot live with such fear in our hearts. It will kill you a
lot faster than cholesterol. The muslim threat is very real and I
agree with you that there may be some bad stuff on the horizon. We
do indeed live in "interesting" times. But worrying will not change
it one iota.
We need to realize that natural disasters and unnatural ones can
always happen. Last week people were killed in their beds by freak
storms. Tornadoes, Tsunamis, Yellowstone being a super volcano,
asteroids destroying all life on earth, hurricanes, floods, plane
crashes, the list goes on.
To dwell or not to dwell in fear is our own choice!
At least Obama is not aiming to piss the bad guys off even more with
threats of war, and is attempting to communicate. Hillary is a smart
woman and tough too. She is in a good job suited to her skills. We
can hope for improvement through diplomacy. But there are never any
guarantees in life.
There are things you can do and things you can't. You should take
your retirement if you want to. You should move if you want to.
This is a very good time to buy a house. All the realtors have full
offerings of bargain basement priced goodies.
Spring is coming. Nothing is more life affirming..... except maybe
new grandbabies. I intend to enjoy both to the max. It is a
conscious choice.
Evelyn
The day after 9/11 people around the world turned out in the streets
in mourning for us in the USA. Would they do that for any other
country?

Bush squandered this outpouring of sympathy by invading a country that
had nothing to do with 9/11.
Thumper
Rita
2009-02-24 21:51:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:39:36 -0800 (PST), Evelyn
Post by Evelyn
Post by J***@gmail.com
Post by mg
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhtt......
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser.   Well, my father is a lot like that.   It scarred
him for life.  He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man.   The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and . . . .
Lurking in my mind is concern that an even greater threat, terrorism,
is always there and the impact will be more catastrophic and come
sooner then later.  
I keep begging my wife to please retire and let us get to hell out of
DC before we see some bio or other attack occur.  We are going to get
that attack and it will be swift.  The leadership I have seen thus far
tells me that is the second in the one/two sequence that we will have
grave difficulty handling.  Current leadership does not care at all
about terrorism.  First speech from top Justice guy was on his biggest
priority . . . . . I and all white people are cowards because we won't
engage in some self-destructive process on race.  President sets up
sequence that will certainly release and empower the most dangerous
people we have encountered in this terror threat.
Just close your eyes and recall those intial moments on September 11th
when you heard and saw the new.  I can remember driving along 95 by
the Pentagon and seeing smoke billowing out of the roof and see all
the firetrucks, ambulances, crying people, and confusion and recall
days after while I worked in volunteer mode there.  There are things
worse then what we face now and they are real.  These are things that
concern me although they are not included in our discussion of the
economy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Jim, we cannot live with such fear in our hearts. It will kill you a
lot faster than cholesterol. The muslim threat is very real and I
agree with you that there may be some bad stuff on the horizon. We
do indeed live in "interesting" times. But worrying will not change
it one iota.
We need to realize that natural disasters and unnatural ones can
always happen. Last week people were killed in their beds by freak
storms. Tornadoes, Tsunamis, Yellowstone being a super volcano,
asteroids destroying all life on earth, hurricanes, floods, plane
crashes, the list goes on.
To dwell or not to dwell in fear is our own choice
That is what I've always believed. I lived in NYC on 9/11 and we
New Yorkers made a choice not to live in fear. We went on with our
lives, some contributed to the clean up, others like myself did
volunteering in centers to help those who had lost jobs or homes
or both We rode the subways as usual, went on with our lives.
We could have cowered in our homes, expecting yet another attack.
There were people in small towns in America who were a hundred
fold more frightened than New Yorkers. And I guess some still are.
Post by Evelyn
At least Obama is not aiming to piss the bad guys off even more with
threats of war, and is attempting to communicate. Hillary is a smart
woman and tough too. She is in a good job suited to her skills. We
can hope for improvement through diplomacy. But there are never any
guarantees in life.
snip

We have to face up to the reality of the recession/depression. Some
think Obama should sugar coat that reality -- I don't agree. Are
American so fragile they can't understand --what the hell, if he did
do the Pollyanna act the right wing would blister him for that. If
they want to live in fear of a terrorist attack or an uprising
internally there is little to do about it.

I am simply blown away at those who think all the answers to the
economic crisis should be produced in one month as it is an ever
changing scenario.

The best we can do is keep our eye on it, realize problems are
all going to addressed, and live our lives as happily as we can.
I don't know if there is anyone in this group who yet is really
suffering unless they choose to bring that attitude on themselves.

I think tonight President Obama will give a balanced assessment.
Isn't that what most Americans really expect of him? We seldom if
ever heard the bad stuff discussed by George Bush -- is that the
kind of President we wanted replicated? Sugarcoating of reality
rubs off very quickly.
mg
2009-02-25 03:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@gmail.com
Post by mg
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhtt......
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser.   Well, my father is a lot like that.   It scarred
him for life.  He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man.   The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and . . . .
Lurking in my mind is concern that an even greater threat, terrorism,
is always there and the impact will be more catastrophic and come
sooner then later.  
I don't see terrorism as much of a threat. The chances of getting
killed by a terrorist are probably much less than being struck by
lightening, for instance. The biggest danger with terrorism is
probably the reaction of the politicians. Hitler, for example, used
the threat of terrorism to work the Germans up into a war-mongering
frenzy.

Nuclear weapons are the only big danger I see from terrorism and if
I'm not mistaken Bush actually cut funding for safeguarding Russia's
nuclear weapons, for instance.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I keep begging my wife to please retire and let us get to hell out of
DC before we see some bio or other attack occur.  We are going to get
that attack and it will be swift.  The leadership I have seen thus far
tells me that is the second in the one/two sequence that we will have
grave difficulty handling.  Current leadership does not care at all
about terrorism.  First speech from top Justice guy was on his biggest
priority . . . . . I and all white people are cowards because we won't
engage in some self-destructive process on race.  President sets up
sequence that will certainly release and empower the most dangerous
people we have encountered in this terror threat.
Just close your eyes and recall those intial moments on September 11th
when you heard and saw the new.  I can remember driving along 95 by
the Pentagon and seeing smoke billowing out of the roof and see all
the firetrucks, ambulances, crying people, and confusion and recall
days after while I worked in volunteer mode there.  There are things
worse then what we face now and they are real.  These are things that
concern me although they are not included in our discussion of the
economy.- Hide quoted text -
Rita
2009-02-25 05:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by J***@gmail.com
Post by mg
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.htmlhtt......
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser.   Well, my father is a lot like that.   It scarred
him for life.  He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man.   The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and . . . .
Lurking in my mind is concern that an even greater threat, terrorism,
is always there and the impact will be more catastrophic and come
sooner then later.  
I don't see terrorism as much of a threat. The chances of getting
killed by a terrorist are probably much less than being struck by
lightening, for instance. The biggest danger with terrorism is
probably the reaction of the politicians. Hitler, for example, used
the threat of terrorism to work the Germans up into a war-mongering
frenzy.
Nuclear weapons are the only big danger I see from terrorism and if
I'm not mistaken Bush actually cut funding for safeguarding Russia's
nuclear weapons, for instance.
I think there is far greater danger from natural disasters which can
hit without warning and will occur whatever political party is in
power. I expect as I live in California I am much more likely to
experience an earthquake than a terrorist attack. In fact I did
experience the fringes of one some years ago when I lived for a
couple of years in Santa Barbara. I am however not about to spend
10 minutes worrying about one. I choose not to worry about things
I have no control over and also because I like being happy and
content far more than dreaming up reasons not to be. I lived in
New York City during 9/11 and had a son working a block from the
Twin Towers and it was dicey until I got a phone call he had made
his way over the Brooklyn Bridge. But neither he or I are
purveyors of gloom and doom -- if something like that affects you
so badly it makes you ever uneasy with your life that is the real
lasting damage. Pity, but some people just can't help it, I guess.
And I am suspicious of politicians like Guiliani who used 9/11 as
a political ploy, not that it did the bugger any good. But if
someone wants to move somewhere a terrorist attack could not possibly
take place -- then they also had better screen for a place no natural
disaster could ever take place or they will exchange one set of
worries for another. Lots of luck on that. Because as you point out,
there is always lightning:)
Post by mg
Post by J***@gmail.com
I keep begging my wife to please retire and let us get to hell out of
DC before we see some bio or other attack occur.  We are going to get
that attack and it will be swift.  The leadership I have seen thus far
tells me that is the second in the one/two sequence that we will have
grave difficulty handling.  Current leadership does not care at all
about terrorism.  First speech from top Justice guy was on his biggest
priority . . . . . I and all white people are cowards because we won't
engage in some self-destructive process on race.  President sets up
sequence that will certainly release and empower the most dangerous
people we have encountered in this terror threat.
Just close your eyes and recall those intial moments on September 11th
when you heard and saw the new.  I can remember driving along 95 by
the Pentagon and seeing smoke billowing out of the roof and see all
the firetrucks, ambulances, crying people, and confusion and recall
days after while I worked in volunteer mode there.  There are things
worse then what we face now and they are real.  These are things that
concern me although they are not included in our discussion of the
economy.- Hide quoted text -
mg
2009-02-25 09:45:50 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 24, 10:32 pm, Rita <***@nowhere.com> wrote:
. . .
Post by Rita
Post by mg
Post by J***@gmail.com
Post by mg
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser.   Well, my father is a lot like that.   It scarred
him for life.  He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man.   The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and . . . .
Lurking in my mind is concern that an even greater threat, terrorism,
is always there and the impact will be more catastrophic and come
sooner then later.  
I don't see terrorism as much of a threat. The chances of getting
killed by a terrorist are probably much less than being struck by
lightening, for instance. The biggest danger with terrorism is
probably the reaction of the politicians. Hitler, for example, used
the threat of terrorism to work the Germans up into a war-mongering
frenzy.
Nuclear weapons are the only big danger I see from terrorism and if
I'm not mistaken Bush actually cut funding for safeguarding Russia's
nuclear weapons, for instance.
I think there is far greater danger from natural disasters which can
hit without warning and will occur whatever political party is in
power.  I expect as I live in California I am much more likely to
experience an earthquake than a terrorist attack.  In fact I did
experience the fringes of one some years ago when I lived for a
couple of years in Santa Barbara.  I am however not about to spend
10 minutes worrying about one.  I choose not to worry about things
I have no control over and also because I like being happy and
content far more than dreaming up reasons not to be.  I lived in
New York City during 9/11 and had a son working a block from the
Twin Towers and it was dicey until I got a phone call he had made
his way over the Brooklyn Bridge.  But neither he or I are
purveyors of gloom and doom -- if something like that affects you
so badly it makes you ever uneasy with your life that is the real
lasting damage. Pity, but some people just can't help it, I guess.
And I am suspicious of politicians like Guiliani who used 9/11 as
a political ploy, not that it did the bugger any good.  But if
someone wants to move somewhere a terrorist attack could not possibly
take place -- then they also had better screen for a place no natural
disaster could ever take place or they will exchange one set of
worries for another.  Lots of luck on that. Because as you point out,
there is always lightning:)
Approximately 40,000 people per year are killed in automobile
accidents. I would bet Americans are about a million times more likely
to be killed by an aggressive driver than a terrorist.

However, I would agree with you that large-scale natural disasters,
like Katrina or, if you live in California, the earthquakes are a very
real threat. The super volcano in Yellowstone would probably kill
millions if it erupted. If I'm not mistaken, the CIA awhile back put
out a report that said global warming was a huge threat to U.S.
security.
Evelyn
2009-02-25 11:24:36 UTC
Permalink
"mg" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a28ec9e8-5337-41d5-a4e9-***@j8g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 24, 10:32 pm, Rita <***@nowhere.com> wrote:
. . .
Post by Rita
Post by mg
Post by J***@gmail.com
Post by mg
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it. Teachers worked for
free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser. Well, my father is a lot like that. It scarred
him for life. He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man. The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and . . . .
Lurking in my mind is concern that an even greater threat, terrorism,
is always there and the impact will be more catastrophic and come
sooner then later.
I don't see terrorism as much of a threat. The chances of getting
killed by a terrorist are probably much less than being struck by
lightening, for instance. The biggest danger with terrorism is
probably the reaction of the politicians. Hitler, for example, used
the threat of terrorism to work the Germans up into a war-mongering
frenzy.
Nuclear weapons are the only big danger I see from terrorism and if
I'm not mistaken Bush actually cut funding for safeguarding Russia's
nuclear weapons, for instance.
I think there is far greater danger from natural disasters which can
hit without warning and will occur whatever political party is in
power. I expect as I live in California I am much more likely to
experience an earthquake than a terrorist attack. In fact I did
experience the fringes of one some years ago when I lived for a
couple of years in Santa Barbara. I am however not about to spend
10 minutes worrying about one. I choose not to worry about things
I have no control over and also because I like being happy and
content far more than dreaming up reasons not to be. I lived in
New York City during 9/11 and had a son working a block from the
Twin Towers and it was dicey until I got a phone call he had made
his way over the Brooklyn Bridge. But neither he or I are
purveyors of gloom and doom -- if something like that affects you
so badly it makes you ever uneasy with your life that is the real
lasting damage. Pity, but some people just can't help it, I guess.
And I am suspicious of politicians like Guiliani who used 9/11 as
a political ploy, not that it did the bugger any good. But if
someone wants to move somewhere a terrorist attack could not possibly
take place -- then they also had better screen for a place no natural
disaster could ever take place or they will exchange one set of
worries for another. Lots of luck on that. Because as you point out,
there is always lightning:)
Approximately 40,000 people per year are killed in automobile
accidents. I would bet Americans are about a million times more likely
to be killed by an aggressive driver than a terrorist.

However, I would agree with you that large-scale natural disasters,
like Katrina or, if you live in California, the earthquakes are a very
real threat. The super volcano in Yellowstone would probably kill
millions if it erupted. If I'm not mistaken, the CIA awhile back put
out a report that said global warming was a huge threat to U.S.
security.



*****************


If you want something that will scare the hell out of you..... I just
watched the history channel's show on the year 2012. It seems that sources
all over the world from the Mayans to Merlin claim that the world will
experience a massive disaster in 2012 that will wipe out humanity.
Creepy.

But they said that about the year 1900 and the year 2000 too. Why December
2012 should be so prevalent in all these doomsday predictions, I don't know.
--
--
Best Regards,
Evelyn

Rest in a sky-like mind.
Sit like a mountain floating on the earth.
Breathe like the wind circling the world
Rumpelstiltskin
2009-02-25 15:41:14 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:45:50 -0800 (PST), mg <***@yahoo.com>

<snip>
Post by mg
Approximately 40,000 people per year are killed in automobile
accidents. I would bet Americans are about a million times more likely
to be killed by an aggressive driver than a terrorist.
However, I would agree with you that large-scale natural disasters,
like Katrina or, if you live in California, the earthquakes are a very
real threat. The super volcano in Yellowstone would probably kill
millions if it erupted. If I'm not mistaken, the CIA awhile back put
out a report that said global warming was a huge threat to U.S.
security.
Since global warming is a huge threat to the existence of life,
including human life, on earth, I guess it is as a by-product also
a huge threat to U.S. security.

That's the CIA though. Somebody picking their nose on Main
Street is a huge security threat to them. It might be a spy signal.
Rita
2009-02-25 16:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
. . .
Post by Rita
Post by mg
Post by J***@gmail.com
Post by mg
Post by mg
Post by Evelyn
This is what people did during the depression.
My father told me that he lived through it.   Teachers worked for free
and people bartered with food or whatever else to keep them working.
Evelyn
Here's a story that's a little bit off topic, but not to far off. I
had a friend I ran around with from the time I was about 10 to 25
years old. His mother was divorced (and so was mine). His mother was
probably in her early 60s when she remarried.
She married a guy who had some severe hangups from the Great
Depression. The guy had a lifetime of savings from a high-paying job,
but they basically lived off her salary because the guy couldn't stand
to spend any money.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Apparently a miser.   Well, my father is a lot like that.   It scarred
him for life.  He was hungry.... genuinely hungry many times as a
child and young man.   The depression changed him forever.
Evelyn
Bank crashes (and war) are obviously two things that can cause
indescribable suffering and . . . .
Lurking in my mind is concern that an even greater threat, terrorism,
is always there and the impact will be more catastrophic and come
sooner then later.  
I don't see terrorism as much of a threat. The chances of getting
killed by a terrorist are probably much less than being struck by
lightening, for instance. The biggest danger with terrorism is
probably the reaction of the politicians. Hitler, for example, used
the threat of terrorism to work the Germans up into a war-mongering
frenzy.
Nuclear weapons are the only big danger I see from terrorism and if
I'm not mistaken Bush actually cut funding for safeguarding Russia's
nuclear weapons, for instance.
I think there is far greater danger from natural disasters which can
hit without warning and will occur whatever political party is in
power.  I expect as I live in California I am much more likely to
experience an earthquake than a terrorist attack.  In fact I did
experience the fringes of one some years ago when I lived for a
couple of years in Santa Barbara.  I am however not about to spend
10 minutes worrying about one.  I choose not to worry about things
I have no control over and also because I like being happy and
content far more than dreaming up reasons not to be.  I lived in
New York City during 9/11 and had a son working a block from the
Twin Towers and it was dicey until I got a phone call he had made
his way over the Brooklyn Bridge.  But neither he or I are
purveyors of gloom and doom -- if something like that affects you
so badly it makes you ever uneasy with your life that is the real
lasting damage. Pity, but some people just can't help it, I guess.
And I am suspicious of politicians like Guiliani who used 9/11 as
a political ploy, not that it did the bugger any good.  But if
someone wants to move somewhere a terrorist attack could not possibly
take place -- then they also had better screen for a place no natural
disaster could ever take place or they will exchange one set of
worries for another.  Lots of luck on that. Because as you point out,
there is always lightning:)
Approximately 40,000 people per year are killed in automobile
accidents. I would bet Americans are about a million times more likely
to be killed by an aggressive driver than a terrorist.
However, I would agree with you that large-scale natural disasters,
like Katrina or, if you live in California, the earthquakes are a very
real threat. The super volcano in Yellowstone would probably kill
millions if it erupted. If I'm not mistaken, the CIA awhile back put
out a report that said global warming was a huge threat to U.S.
security.
I don't know the numbers but auto accidents are a frequent cause of
death here in San Diego because people all have cars and most deadly
accidents occur on the many freeways. Now in New York City auto
deaths were not a high number. Large percentage of New Yorkers do not
own a car and in the city traffic moves at a snail's pace

I would think any worrier about stuff like this would have to look
at murder rates as well.

I wonder where the experts would say the safest place in the U.S. to
park your carcass if you were a worrier would be? Safe from
terrorism, natural disasters and man made disasters of any kind?
Where you could happily totter off into whatever old age was your
fate without a worry in the world?

Werner
2009-02-24 04:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
There is still the Big War possibility. In the face of tragedy expand
the pasture. Anschluss. Canada is just accross the border. Dollar bad;
Amero good.
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/how.shtml
Gaved
2009-02-24 17:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
There is still the Big War possibility. In the face of tragedy expand
the pasture. Anschluss. Canada is just accross the border. Dollar bad;
Amero good.
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/how.shtml

Meaning what? Explain this.What do you mean by Canada just across the
border?
What Big War possibility ... sounds like drivel to me.
Lorna
J***@gmail.com
2009-02-24 05:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aj9YrEC5DB6A&refer=home
These kinds of doomsday stories add to the fear people feel and are
unhelpful. We need some real leadership that suggests confidence and
better days. We don't have it and any reading of markets can only
support that position.

I asked people here what Obama's accomplishments were last January
thru March and frustrated many. I have managed a large organization
and know that all the theories and naive ideas of newcomers to such
positions take a pounding. It takes time and hard knocks to make a
seasoned leader. Obama is not that man.

The foundation for this scenario is destruction of our economic model.
If we destroy the structure of our banking, insurance, transportation,
medical, energy, and other backbone industries, we can't sustain. The
challenge I see is that as we kowtow to environmentalists, socialists,
and others who insist on destroying the systems we depend on, we
destroy ourselves. Business is the goose that lays the eggs. It
produces the jobs, the wealth, the tax revenues, and without it,
capital will flee. The wealthy will set up their own world out of the
reach of the rabble and can flee with their capital. Don't be fooled.
As we selfdestruct, other nations will make their own decisions and
structure their own solutions and some will likely rise. My guess is
North Asia will be in best position to adjust to new reality.

The mess we are in is not as bad as it looks mg. The real problem is
we have allowed several trends to go on too long and like winding a
rubberband tighter and tighter, stasis won't return until we unwind a
great deal of that slop. Overpriced homes is one trend for example.
Overdependence on government for basics of living is another. No
goverment can provide the basics of life no matter how much liberals
might believe they can. As more take from government, more figure out
how to opt out of placing their resources at risk.

I have been considering this mess and begin to ponder converting every
dollar I have to gold and other precious commodities and simply
leaving. I'll lose my pension and ss. But, the scenario you list
above pensions are moot.

Before we get to the point of your scenario however, those who live in
fear and believe they NEED government will concede any level of power
to government and we will shift to more powerful and dictatorial
government. I expect martial law at some point and have said as much
since I began looking at Obama. Yes, Obama is like the mule in
foundation. A force that does not fit the mold or have to pass
through our value expectations to seize power. He has flashed a side
at moments that tells me this man will go for the jugular and knows no
bounds. He did it locally in Chicago to climb to power and people
really fear him. Many more will before we see better days.

There is no logical reason for this president to be so aggressive as
he enters the job in destroying our economy. And you don't get it.
You will my friend. He is no fool and knows that his words instantly
are reflected in markets worldwide. A great and solid company, GE is
selling for 8 bucks a share today. Eight bucks a share!

Go on and say I am fearmongering or worse. No sweat off my butt. But,
I am damn sure of what I am seeing. The most corrupt people we have
ever seen run Congress and they are only interested in grabbing what
they can as some of them have got to wonder about our viability at
some point.

I said I was really afraid of Obama a while back and was mocked for
it. Many more will as they see every dollar of their wealth wiped out
- and wonder just what is this guy intending.
gator
2009-02-24 05:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@gmail.com
I said I was really afraid of Obama a while back and was mocked for
it. Many more will as they see every dollar of their wealth wiped out
- and wonder just what is this guy intending.
you're still ignorant and stupid, and sinking fast,

no matter what he does or what happens, I hope all you hillbillies who gave
us the hillbilly
chimp suffer, and suffer horribly, you deserve it

you shitheads have riled up real Americans to the point that they would
rather see the country completely destroyed
then to hand it back to the greedy, selfish pigs who created this mess ,

I would rather see blood flowing in the streets than see any republican in
charge again
Evelyn
2009-02-24 11:46:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jim, I will address a few things you say. Not all, as you have
posted a lot.
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
Post by J***@gmail.com
These kinds of doomsday stories add to the fear people feel and are
unhelpful.  We need some real leadership that suggests confidence and
better days. We don't have it and any reading of markets can only
support that position.
There are a number of reasons for the current financial crisis
according to the best minds of our time, but not a lot has to do with
our "current leadership" which would seem to be trying very hard to
fix it, by listening to the best minds of our time. Have patience.
Give some time to see if his ideas work. Having "confidence" and
belief in "better days" as a positive attitude works both ways.
Giving in to doomsday scenarios does add to the fear, so why feed into
it?
Post by J***@gmail.com
I asked people here what Obama's accomplishments were last January
thru March and frustrated many.  I have managed a large organization
and know that all the theories and naive ideas of newcomers to such
positions take a pounding.  It takes time and hard knocks to make a
seasoned leader.  Obama is not that man.
But he does seem to be learning fast by listening to those with the
seasoning you would require. He's a fast learner and a hard worker
and the man has vision. That's how he got elected. Surely you must
see some of that yourself?
Post by J***@gmail.com
The foundation for this scenario is destruction of our economic model.
If we destroy the structure of our banking, insurance, transportation,
medical, energy, and other backbone industries, we can't sustain.  The
challenge I see is that as we kowtow to environmentalists, socialists,
and others who insist on destroying the systems we depend on, we
destroy ourselves.  
Has it destroyed France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and other countries
who provide more services and medical care to their citizens?

Meanwhile these businesses you value so much have already demonstrated
their ineptitude and have essentially failed all on their own.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Business is the goose that lays the eggs.  It
produces the jobs, the wealth, the tax revenues, and without it,
capital will flee.  The wealthy will set up their own world out of the
reach of the rabble and can flee with their capital.  
They already have, in Swiss accounts and other offshore banks. They
get multi million dollar bonuses that they pay to themselves, then
have their hand out for public money. These businesses you believe
in as our salvation are running away with the store. They don't want
our business, they want plunder.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Don't be fooled.
As we selfdestruct, other nations will make their own decisions and
structure their own solutions and some will likely rise.  My guess is
North Asia will be in best position to adjust to new reality.
You are probably right. We owe them so much money they already own
us, and our greedy businesspeople have tipped the scales even more.
In life there is always someone ready to take advantage of someone
else when they are down. It's the way life is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
The mess we are in is not as bad as it looks mg.  The real problem is
we have allowed several trends to go on too long and like winding a
rubberband tighter and tighter, stasis won't return until we unwind a
great deal of that slop.  
There, I agree with you.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Overpriced homes is one trend for example.
Overdependence on government for basics of living is another.  No
goverment can provide the basics of life no matter how much liberals
might believe they can.  As more take from government, more figure out
how to opt out of placing their resources at risk.
Other governments do it, and they manage.
It is not as unmanageable as you seem to think.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I have been considering this mess and begin to ponder converting every
dollar I have to gold and other precious commodities and simply
leaving.  I'll lose my pension and ss.  But, the scenario you list
above pensions are moot.
Gold is heavy and hard to transport, store, and keep. Diamonds are
not much value when they have been replaced by cubic zirconias with
just as much sparkle, and who wants diamonds anyway when people are
hungry? You need to have a wealthy class who would buy them for
baubles.

In the scenario mg mentions, this country lived through it before and
they got creative in ways we cannot even remember anymore. They made
their own clothes, they grew their own food, they moved in under one
roof together and pooled their efforts. The grandmothers took care
of the babies while the mothers did other work. They fed people in
bread lines and soup lines. All agreed it was a bad thing, and
again...... it was created by unregulated business.

There is a saying from those times;

Use it up
Wear it out
Make it do
Or do without

Our way of life is unsustainable as it is right now. Look at the
children of today. They have too much stuff. We all have too much
stuff. We sell and buy and import more to sell and buy. We are
chasing our own tails. We can't sustain ourselves anymore. Try and
find a pair of shoes made in the USA. Or sheets, or almost
anything. It had to come to a crisis.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Before we get to the point of your scenario however, those who live in
fear and believe they NEED government will concede any level of power
to government and we will shift to more powerful and dictatorial
government.  
I doubt that. Americans aren't going to go that far, but I think we
will demand more of our government than we have previously. Those
guys who snooze through meetings and do little, are not going to be
tolerated anymore. We need people who really work for us.
Incumbents will have to prove themselves if they want to be re
elected.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I expect martial law at some point and have said as much
since I began looking at Obama.  Yes, Obama is like the mule in
foundation.  A force that does not fit the mold or have to pass
through our value expectations to seize power.  He has flashed a side
at moments that tells me this man will go for the jugular and knows no
bounds.  He did it locally in Chicago to climb to power and people
really fear him.  Many more will before we see better days.
We need someone strong right now. Many see those very characteristics
you criticize as his greatest value to us right now. You yourself
have noted that he is sort of the "anti-bush". But we won't tolerate
him snoozing either. And by the way, many would tell you that the
mule is harder working and smarter than either the burro or the horse,
and more useful at times. I think that is a good analogy for
Obama. The repubs lost the last election for the same reason that
the dems lost the previous one. Not quite the right guy with not
quite enough appeal.

Which brings up something I have said before. We have to stop our
habit of devouring our own leaders. We need to unite behind efforts
to fix the mess, not wish them ill when they are trying to help.
Post by J***@gmail.com
There is no logical reason for this president to be so aggressive as
he enters the job in destroying our economy.  And you don't get it.
You will my friend.  He is no fool and knows that his words instantly
are reflected in markets worldwide.  A great and solid company, GE is
selling for 8 bucks a share today.  Eight bucks a share!  
I can't see that Obama has any part in that. I would look at the
company itself and find out what happened from within. Not look at
the president who is in office only a few weeks and blame him for it.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Go on and say I am fearmongering or worse.  No sweat off my butt. But,
I am damn sure of what I am seeing.  The most corrupt people we have
ever seen run Congress and they are only interested in grabbing what
they can as some of them have got to wonder about our viability at
some point.
You are working yourself into a real snit all for nothing. You need
to cultivate hope and look to fixing the mess, not painting a blacker
picture than it really is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I said I was really afraid of Obama a while back and was mocked for
it.  Many more will as they see every dollar of their wealth wiped out
- and wonder just what is this guy intending.-
How could he intend anything worse than what he inherited? He
inherited a total meltdown. He's listening to good minds, and
honestly trying to fix it. Granted his fixing it comes from a
different place than you would like, but I think he is doing a better
job than what has been done for 8 prior years.

Try to find the hope that many of us see. We are not kidding
ourselves, we see a better future for everyone if he succeeds. If he
fails it won't be from the actions of a few weeks, but from the mess
he inherited being simply too great.

Evelyn
Hal Hanig
2009-02-24 13:08:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jim, I will address a few things you say....
Well done, Evelyn. I marvel at and envy your patience. As the saying goes,
I would if I could but I can't.

Hal
J***@gmail.com
2009-02-24 13:13:29 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:46:47 -0800 (PST), Evelyn
Post by Evelyn
Hi Jim, I will address a few things you say. Not all, as you have
posted a lot.
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
Post by J***@gmail.com
These kinds of doomsday stories add to the fear people feel and are
unhelpful.  We need some real leadership that suggests confidence and
better days. We don't have it and any reading of markets can only
support that position.
There are a number of reasons for the current financial crisis
according to the best minds of our time, but not a lot has to do with
our "current leadership" which would seem to be trying very hard to
fix it, by listening to the best minds of our time. Have patience.
Give some time to see if his ideas work. Having "confidence" and
belief in "better days" as a positive attitude works both ways.
Giving in to doomsday scenarios does add to the fear, so why feed into
it?
Post by J***@gmail.com
I asked people here what Obama's accomplishments were last January
thru March and frustrated many.  I have managed a large organization
and know that all the theories and naive ideas of newcomers to such
positions take a pounding.  It takes time and hard knocks to make a
seasoned leader.  Obama is not that man.
But he does seem to be learning fast by listening to those with the
seasoning you would require. He's a fast learner and a hard worker
and the man has vision. That's how he got elected. Surely you must
see some of that yourself?
Post by J***@gmail.com
The foundation for this scenario is destruction of our economic model.
If we destroy the structure of our banking, insurance, transportation,
medical, energy, and other backbone industries, we can't sustain.  The
challenge I see is that as we kowtow to environmentalists, socialists,
and others who insist on destroying the systems we depend on, we
destroy ourselves.  
Has it destroyed France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and other countries
who provide more services and medical care to their citizens?
Meanwhile these businesses you value so much have already demonstrated
their ineptitude and have essentially failed all on their own.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Business is the goose that lays the eggs.  It
produces the jobs, the wealth, the tax revenues, and without it,
capital will flee.  The wealthy will set up their own world out of the
reach of the rabble and can flee with their capital.  
They already have, in Swiss accounts and other offshore banks. They
get multi million dollar bonuses that they pay to themselves, then
have their hand out for public money. These businesses you believe
in as our salvation are running away with the store. They don't want
our business, they want plunder.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Don't be fooled.
As we selfdestruct, other nations will make their own decisions and
structure their own solutions and some will likely rise.  My guess is
North Asia will be in best position to adjust to new reality.
You are probably right. We owe them so much money they already own
us, and our greedy businesspeople have tipped the scales even more.
In life there is always someone ready to take advantage of someone
else when they are down. It's the way life is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
The mess we are in is not as bad as it looks mg.  The real problem is
we have allowed several trends to go on too long and like winding a
rubberband tighter and tighter, stasis won't return until we unwind a
great deal of that slop.  
There, I agree with you.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Overpriced homes is one trend for example.
Overdependence on government for basics of living is another.  No
goverment can provide the basics of life no matter how much liberals
might believe they can.  As more take from government, more figure out
how to opt out of placing their resources at risk.
Other governments do it, and they manage.
It is not as unmanageable as you seem to think.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I have been considering this mess and begin to ponder converting every
dollar I have to gold and other precious commodities and simply
leaving.  I'll lose my pension and ss.  But, the scenario you list
above pensions are moot.
Gold is heavy and hard to transport, store, and keep. Diamonds are
not much value when they have been replaced by cubic zirconias with
just as much sparkle, and who wants diamonds anyway when people are
hungry? You need to have a wealthy class who would buy them for
baubles.
In the scenario mg mentions, this country lived through it before and
they got creative in ways we cannot even remember anymore. They made
their own clothes, they grew their own food, they moved in under one
roof together and pooled their efforts. The grandmothers took care
of the babies while the mothers did other work. They fed people in
bread lines and soup lines. All agreed it was a bad thing, and
again...... it was created by unregulated business.
There is a saying from those times;
Use it up
Wear it out
Make it do
Or do without
Our way of life is unsustainable as it is right now. Look at the
children of today. They have too much stuff. We all have too much
stuff. We sell and buy and import more to sell and buy. We are
chasing our own tails. We can't sustain ourselves anymore. Try and
find a pair of shoes made in the USA. Or sheets, or almost
anything. It had to come to a crisis.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Before we get to the point of your scenario however, those who live in
fear and believe they NEED government will concede any level of power
to government and we will shift to more powerful and dictatorial
government.  
I doubt that. Americans aren't going to go that far, but I think we
will demand more of our government than we have previously. Those
guys who snooze through meetings and do little, are not going to be
tolerated anymore. We need people who really work for us.
Incumbents will have to prove themselves if they want to be re
elected.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I expect martial law at some point and have said as much
since I began looking at Obama.  Yes, Obama is like the mule in
foundation.  A force that does not fit the mold or have to pass
through our value expectations to seize power.  He has flashed a side
at moments that tells me this man will go for the jugular and knows no
bounds.  He did it locally in Chicago to climb to power and people
really fear him.  Many more will before we see better days.
We need someone strong right now. Many see those very characteristics
you criticize as his greatest value to us right now. You yourself
have noted that he is sort of the "anti-bush". But we won't tolerate
him snoozing either. And by the way, many would tell you that the
mule is harder working and smarter than either the burro or the horse,
and more useful at times. I think that is a good analogy for
Obama. The repubs lost the last election for the same reason that
the dems lost the previous one. Not quite the right guy with not
quite enough appeal.
Which brings up something I have said before. We have to stop our
habit of devouring our own leaders. We need to unite behind efforts
to fix the mess, not wish them ill when they are trying to help.
Post by J***@gmail.com
There is no logical reason for this president to be so aggressive as
he enters the job in destroying our economy.  And you don't get it.
You will my friend.  He is no fool and knows that his words instantly
are reflected in markets worldwide.  A great and solid company, GE is
selling for 8 bucks a share today.  Eight bucks a share!  
I can't see that Obama has any part in that. I would look at the
company itself and find out what happened from within. Not look at
the president who is in office only a few weeks and blame him for it.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Go on and say I am fearmongering or worse.  No sweat off my butt. But,
I am damn sure of what I am seeing.  The most corrupt people we have
ever seen run Congress and they are only interested in grabbing what
they can as some of them have got to wonder about our viability at
some point.
You are working yourself into a real snit all for nothing. You need
to cultivate hope and look to fixing the mess, not painting a blacker
picture than it really is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I said I was really afraid of Obama a while back and was mocked for
it.  Many more will as they see every dollar of their wealth wiped out
- and wonder just what is this guy intending.-
How could he intend anything worse than what he inherited? He
inherited a total meltdown. He's listening to good minds, and
honestly trying to fix it. Granted his fixing it comes from a
different place than you would like, but I think he is doing a better
job than what has been done for 8 prior years.
Try to find the hope that many of us see. We are not kidding
ourselves, we see a better future for everyone if he succeeds. If he
fails it won't be from the actions of a few weeks, but from the mess
he inherited being simply too great.
Evelyn
I read your comments and wrote two long responses. But, at this
point, I've said all I can say. Good people driven by fear and
ignorance have been herded many times in history to throw over their
governments in soft revolutions and later looked back in wonder at
what they participated in. We stand at those crossroads today and have
abandoned all sense of democracy. The democratic process is messy but
it allows debate, compromise, ammendment and allows the public some
window on the issues so they can participate as well.

Since this president has assumed office, he has followed Saul
Aulinsky's fundamental rules to bring about, not revelation, but
revolution. He has killed any opportunity for any legislative process
and instead pushes massive bills through that nobody can understand
and that are only trojan horses for fundamentally changing our
society. Soon, our government will control transportation, energy,
health care, banking, insurance, and who knows what else. Evelyn.
That is not even what Europe has done. It is socialism as done in
Russia, China, Eastern Europe and elsewhere. It is oppressive, puts
the citizen in subservient position to beg for any rights and economic
goods and we got here in only a couple weeks. Governments select
winners and losers, as Obama did on this stimulus bill. They instill
fear, as Obama was telling Mayors when he wagged his finger, as people
learn that government can take away what it can provide. That is not
democracy. That is not our history. That is slavery and tyranny and
our ancestors fought and died to create better. Better men then we
have today argued and struggled intellectually to craft a system of
checks and balances between state and federal government, between
different branches of government, between different bodies in the
Legislative body, even within the judiciary. They intended change to
come slowly as result of process. Not fiat. All that has been
overruled for a dicatator.

I can not have discussions with people here. They do not understand
what is happening and I am tired of the time and energy required. I
saw this coming more then a year ago and predicted, correctly, that
unlike other election cycles, markets would not climb, but would fall
sharply. This economic downturn is not as bad as it has been made to
be. The economy is already showing some bright points but is being
pounded into the ground, purposefully I believe. A window was opened
by weak leadership from George Bush and elements of the most radical
people in the nation who have climbed to power in key positions in and
out of government. We are in the middle of a revolution and don't
know it - yet.
Evelyn
2009-02-24 16:56:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@gmail.com
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:46:47 -0800 (PST), Evelyn
Hi Jim, I will address a few things you say.   Not all, as you have
posted a lot.
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
Post by J***@gmail.com
These kinds of doomsday stories add to the fear people feel and are
unhelpful.  We need some real leadership that suggests confidence and
better days. We don't have it and any reading of markets can only
support that position.
There are a number of reasons for the current financial crisis
according to the best minds of our time, but not a lot has to do with
our "current leadership" which would seem to be trying very hard to
fix it, by listening to the best minds of our time.   Have patience.
Give some time to see if his ideas work.   Having "confidence" and
belief in "better days" as a positive attitude works both ways.
Giving in to doomsday scenarios does add to the fear, so why feed into
it?
Post by J***@gmail.com
I asked people here what Obama's accomplishments were last January
thru March and frustrated many.  I have managed a large organization
and know that all the theories and naive ideas of newcomers to such
positions take a pounding.  It takes time and hard knocks to make a
seasoned leader.  Obama is not that man.
But he does seem to be learning fast by listening to those with the
seasoning you would require.   He's a fast learner and a hard worker
and the man has vision.  That's how he got elected.   Surely you must
see some of that yourself?
Post by J***@gmail.com
The foundation for this scenario is destruction of our economic model.
If we destroy the structure of our banking, insurance, transportation,
medical, energy, and other backbone industries, we can't sustain.  The
challenge I see is that as we kowtow to environmentalists, socialists,
and others who insist on destroying the systems we depend on, we
destroy ourselves.  
Has it destroyed France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and other countries
who provide more services and medical care to their citizens?
Meanwhile these businesses you value so much have already demonstrated
their ineptitude and have essentially failed all on their own.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Business is the goose that lays the eggs.  It
produces the jobs, the wealth, the tax revenues, and without it,
capital will flee.  The wealthy will set up their own world out of the
reach of the rabble and can flee with their capital.  
They already have, in Swiss accounts and other offshore banks.   They
get multi million dollar bonuses that they pay to themselves, then
have their hand out for public money.   These businesses you believe
in as our salvation are running away with the store.   They don't want
our business, they want plunder.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Don't be fooled.
As we selfdestruct, other nations will make their own decisions and
structure their own solutions and some will likely rise.  My guess is
North Asia will be in best position to adjust to new reality.
You are probably right.   We owe them so much money they already own
us, and our greedy businesspeople have tipped the scales even more.
In life there is always someone ready to take advantage of someone
else when they are down.   It's the way life is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
The mess we are in is not as bad as it looks mg.  The real problem is
we have allowed several trends to go on too long and like winding a
rubberband tighter and tighter, stasis won't return until we unwind a
great deal of that slop.  
There, I agree with you.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Overpriced homes is one trend for example.
Overdependence on government for basics of living is another.  No
goverment can provide the basics of life no matter how much liberals
might believe they can.  As more take from government, more figure out
how to opt out of placing their resources at risk.
Other governments do it, and they manage.
It is not as unmanageable as you seem to think.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I have been considering this mess and begin to ponder converting every
dollar I have to gold and other precious commodities and simply
leaving.  I'll lose my pension and ss.  But, the scenario you list
above pensions are moot.
Gold is heavy and hard to transport, store, and keep.   Diamonds are
not much value when they have been replaced by cubic zirconias with
just as much sparkle, and who wants diamonds anyway when people are
hungry?  You need to have a wealthy class who would buy them for
baubles.
In the scenario mg mentions, this country lived through it before and
they got creative in ways we cannot even remember anymore.   They made
their own clothes, they grew their own food, they moved in under one
roof together and pooled their efforts.   The grandmothers took care
of the babies while the mothers did other work.   They fed people in
bread lines and soup lines.   All agreed it was a bad thing, and
again...... it was created by unregulated business.
There is a saying from those times;
Use it up
Wear it out
Make it do
Or do without
Our way of life is unsustainable as it is right now.   Look at the
children of today.  They have too much stuff.   We all have too much
stuff.   We sell and buy and import more to sell and buy.   We are
chasing our own tails.   We can't sustain ourselves anymore.   Try and
find a pair of shoes made in the USA.   Or sheets, or almost
anything.   It had to come to a crisis.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Before we get to the point of your scenario however, those who live in
fear and believe they NEED government will concede any level of power
to government and we will shift to more powerful and dictatorial
government.  
I doubt that.   Americans aren't going to go that far, but I think we
will demand more of our government than we have previously.   Those
guys who snooze through meetings and do little, are not going to be
tolerated anymore.   We need people who really work for us.
Incumbents will have to prove themselves if they want to be re
elected.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I expect martial law at some point and have said as much
since I began looking at Obama.  Yes, Obama is like the mule in
foundation.  A force that does not fit the mold or have to pass
through our value expectations to seize power.  He has flashed a side
at moments that tells me this man will go for the jugular and knows no
bounds.  He did it locally in Chicago to climb to power and people
really fear him.  Many more will before we see better days.
We need someone strong right now.  Many see those very characteristics
you criticize as his greatest value to us right now.   You yourself
have noted that he is sort of the "anti-bush".   But we won't tolerate
him snoozing either.   And by the way, many would tell you that the
mule is harder working and smarter than either the burro or the horse,
and more useful at times.   I think that is a good analogy for
Obama.   The repubs lost the last election for the same reason that
the dems lost the previous one.   Not quite the right guy with not
quite enough appeal.
Which brings up something I have said before.  We have to stop our
habit of devouring our own leaders.   We need to unite behind efforts
to fix the mess, not wish them ill when they are trying to help.
Post by J***@gmail.com
There is no logical reason for this president to be so aggressive as
he enters the job in destroying our economy.  And you don't get it.
You will my friend.  He is no fool and knows that his words instantly
are reflected in markets worldwide.  A great and solid company, GE is
selling for 8 bucks a share today.  Eight bucks a share!  
I can't see that Obama has any part in that.   I would look at the
company itself and find out what happened from within.   Not look at
the president who is in office only a few weeks and blame him for it.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Go on and say I am fearmongering or worse.  No sweat off my butt. But,
I am damn sure of what I am seeing.  The most corrupt people we have
ever seen run Congress and they are only interested in grabbing what
they can as some of them have got to wonder about our viability at
some point.
You are working yourself into a real snit all for nothing.   You need
to cultivate hope and look to fixing the mess, not painting a blacker
picture than it really is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I said I was really afraid of Obama a while back and was mocked for
it.  Many more will as they see every dollar of their wealth wiped out
- and wonder just what is this guy intending.-
How could he intend anything worse than what he inherited?   He
inherited a total meltdown.   He's listening to good minds, and
honestly trying to fix it.  Granted his fixing it comes from a
different place than you would like, but I think he is doing a better
job than what has been done for 8 prior years.
Try to find the hope that many of us see.   We are not kidding
ourselves, we see a better future for everyone if he succeeds.   If he
fails it won't be from the actions of a few weeks, but from the mess
he inherited being simply too great.
Evelyn
I read your comments and wrote two long responses.  But, at this
point, I've said all I can say.  Good people driven by fear and
ignorance have been herded many times in history to throw over their
governments in soft revolutions and later looked back in wonder at
what they participated in. We stand at those crossroads today and have
abandoned all sense of democracy.  The democratic process is messy but
it allows debate, compromise, ammendment and allows the public some
window on the issues so they can participate as well.  
Since this president has assumed office, he has followed Saul
Aulinsky's fundamental rules to bring about, not revelation, but
revolution.  He has killed any opportunity for any legislative process
and instead pushes massive bills through that nobody can understand
and that are only trojan horses for fundamentally changing our
society.  Soon, our government will control transportation, energy,
health care, banking, insurance, and who knows what else.  Evelyn.
That is not even what Europe has done.  It is socialism as done in
Russia, China, Eastern Europe and elsewhere.  It is oppressive, puts
the citizen in subservient position to beg for any rights and economic
goods and we got here in only a couple weeks.  Governments select
winners and losers, as Obama did on this stimulus bill.  They instill
fear, as Obama was telling Mayors when he wagged his finger, as people
learn that government can take away what it can provide.  That is not
democracy.  That is not our history.  That is slavery and tyranny and
our ancestors fought and died to create better.  Better men then we
have today argued and struggled intellectually to craft a system of
checks and balances between state and federal government, between
different branches of government, between different bodies in the
Legislative body, even within the judiciary.  They intended change to
come slowly as result of process.  Not fiat.  All that has been
overruled for a dicatator.
I can not have discussions with people here.  They do not understand
what is happening and I am tired of the time and energy required.  I
saw this coming more then a year ago and predicted, correctly, that
unlike other election cycles, markets would not climb, but would fall
sharply.  This economic downturn is not as bad as it has been made to
be.  The economy is already showing some bright points but is being
pounded into the ground, purposefully I believe.  A window was opened
by weak leadership from George Bush and elements of the most radical
people in the nation who have climbed to power in key positions in and
out of government.  We are in the middle of a revolution and don't
know it - yet.
Jim,

I put a lot of time and effort into my reply as you put a lot of time
and effort into yours. We have both stated our cases as best we
could, and I might add, WITHOUT being abusive about it. Real
communication can take place if people try to follow "right speech" as
we have been advised by the smartest guy I have ever heard of, in the
bit I posted yesterday.

But, after reading what you just posted here, I feel as though you are
fearing something that is too ephemeral, too trumped up, made up, and
will never, ever happen here. I find your message to be too much
like "the sky is falling" when I see it as "the sun has finally
started to shine after a long dark time".

We Americans LOVE our democracy and we love our freedom too much to
ever compromise them. We love our entrepreneurs and our more visible
businesspeople too much to spoil the fun. The American dream is a
capitalist dream, and we know it can be achieved and won.... and we
like it that way.

We will NEVER become communist, but there are some things that need to
be brought to rein. Can't you see that the middle class is
shrinking? The GDP is shrinking? The unions are losing their
power? The kids can't afford to go to college and the people can't
afford elder care and medical care, and too many necessary products
and services (like medical care and oil prices for instance) are
ruining people?

My mother in law worked hard all her life. She saved and turned off
lights and was very careful with her money. But when she reached the
end of her life, her savings and the money in her house, were eaten up
in a few short years. She had to go on medicaid near the end. It
is almost impossible for "everyman" to prepare for eventualities by
saving up and working hard and all the other good things we have been
taught. THAT is the part of the American dream that many of us
retirees face!

This isn't the retirement I planned for!!!! And it is way worse for
our kids and grandkids.

We need to do something now to fix these inequities. A dead giveaway
in countries that have had revolutions is when the rich get richer and
the poor become very poor and the middle class is bearing it all and
shrinks quickly into the poorer class. THAT is what is happening
here!!!!!!! Can anyone deny it?

And you keep saying (essentially) that the democrats and Obama are not
working in a bipartisan fashion. They tried and were openly
rebuffed. The republicans are not prepared to think out of the
box. They are still talking tax cuts for the rich and trickle down
and all that stuff which has been tried and failed already.

Where have I heard that the definition of stupidity is doing the same
thing over and over again and expecting a different result each
time? When will giving tax cuts for the rich be proven to have
failed in your book? I am convinced that it is a failed tactic
now. I am willing to think out of the box, and I urge you to PLEASE
be hopeful or at least try to be. When we demonize someone we
invariably err. Bush wasn't a monster, he was just not up to the
challenge. Obama is not a monster, he means to do right by the
country, and sometimes a smart newcomer who tries really hard, is a
really good bet.

I believe he really is going to do his best and he has good minds at
his disposal and he isn't hesitating to employ them to pull us out of
this ditch. To imagine he won't have some errors along the way is
folly. But to dwell on those as signs of doomsday is also folly.

Hoarding gold won't help your fears. What might help is buying a big
old house in farm country and hunkering down, learning to can
vegetables (I know you already know how to grow them!) and hoping the
kids won't need to come home and live with you, but having the room
for them if they do..... if you are that afraid for the future. I
would mostly want to tell you not to be afraid, and that your fears
are being fed by propagandists, and that a philosophy of hopefulness
is a better way to approach the future. I am not advising you to
look at the future as rosy-posy-silliness, but as our attitude and
conviction towards beating this will help towards that eventual end.

As for financial advice I think you are probably way more
knowledgeable than I am, but I trust money more than stocks or other
investments. I also trust REAL estate, (which is why they call it
that) and think that will ultimately level out too. In any case,
money can't buy happiness as you have always heard, but it can soften
some of the blows of life.

Best,
Evelyn
Sordo™
2009-02-24 17:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evelyn
Post by J***@gmail.com
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:46:47 -0800 (PST), Evelyn
Hi Jim, I will address a few things you say.   Not all, as you have
posted a lot.
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
Post by J***@gmail.com
These kinds of doomsday stories add to the fear people feel and are
unhelpful.  We need some real leadership that suggests confidence and
better days. We don't have it and any reading of markets can only
support that position.
There are a number of reasons for the current financial crisis
according to the best minds of our time, but not a lot has to do with
our "current leadership" which would seem to be trying very hard to
fix it, by listening to the best minds of our time.   Have patience.
Give some time to see if his ideas work.   Having "confidence" and
belief in "better days" as a positive attitude works both ways.
Giving in to doomsday scenarios does add to the fear, so why feed into
it?
Post by J***@gmail.com
I asked people here what Obama's accomplishments were last January
thru March and frustrated many.  I have managed a large organization
and know that all the theories and naive ideas of newcomers to such
positions take a pounding.  It takes time and hard knocks to make a
seasoned leader.  Obama is not that man.
But he does seem to be learning fast by listening to those with the
seasoning you would require.   He's a fast learner and a hard worker
and the man has vision.  That's how he got elected.   Surely you must
see some of that yourself?
Post by J***@gmail.com
The foundation for this scenario is destruction of our economic model.
If we destroy the structure of our banking, insurance, transportation,
medical, energy, and other backbone industries, we can't sustain.  The
challenge I see is that as we kowtow to environmentalists, socialists,
and others who insist on destroying the systems we depend on, we
destroy ourselves.  
Has it destroyed France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and other countries
who provide more services and medical care to their citizens?
Meanwhile these businesses you value so much have already demonstrated
their ineptitude and have essentially failed all on their own.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Business is the goose that lays the eggs.  It
produces the jobs, the wealth, the tax revenues, and without it,
capital will flee.  The wealthy will set up their own world out of the
reach of the rabble and can flee with their capital.  
They already have, in Swiss accounts and other offshore banks.   They
get multi million dollar bonuses that they pay to themselves, then
have their hand out for public money.   These businesses you believe
in as our salvation are running away with the store.   They don't want
our business, they want plunder.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Don't be fooled.
As we selfdestruct, other nations will make their own decisions and
structure their own solutions and some will likely rise.  My guess is
North Asia will be in best position to adjust to new reality.
You are probably right.   We owe them so much money they already own
us, and our greedy businesspeople have tipped the scales even more.
In life there is always someone ready to take advantage of someone
else when they are down.   It's the way life is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
The mess we are in is not as bad as it looks mg.  The real problem is
we have allowed several trends to go on too long and like winding a
rubberband tighter and tighter, stasis won't return until we unwind a
great deal of that slop.  
There, I agree with you.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Overpriced homes is one trend for example.
Overdependence on government for basics of living is another.  No
goverment can provide the basics of life no matter how much liberals
might believe they can.  As more take from government, more figure out
how to opt out of placing their resources at risk.
Other governments do it, and they manage.
It is not as unmanageable as you seem to think.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I have been considering this mess and begin to ponder converting every
dollar I have to gold and other precious commodities and simply
leaving.  I'll lose my pension and ss.  But, the scenario you list
above pensions are moot.
Gold is heavy and hard to transport, store, and keep.   Diamonds are
not much value when they have been replaced by cubic zirconias with
just as much sparkle, and who wants diamonds anyway when people are
hungry?  You need to have a wealthy class who would buy them for
baubles.
In the scenario mg mentions, this country lived through it before and
they got creative in ways we cannot even remember anymore.   They made
their own clothes, they grew their own food, they moved in under one
roof together and pooled their efforts.   The grandmothers took care
of the babies while the mothers did other work.   They fed people in
bread lines and soup lines.   All agreed it was a bad thing, and
again...... it was created by unregulated business.
There is a saying from those times;
Use it up
Wear it out
Make it do
Or do without
Our way of life is unsustainable as it is right now.   Look at the
children of today.  They have too much stuff.   We all have too much
stuff.   We sell and buy and import more to sell and buy.   We are
chasing our own tails.   We can't sustain ourselves anymore.   Try and
find a pair of shoes made in the USA.   Or sheets, or almost
anything.   It had to come to a crisis.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Before we get to the point of your scenario however, those who live in
fear and believe they NEED government will concede any level of power
to government and we will shift to more powerful and dictatorial
government.  
I doubt that.   Americans aren't going to go that far, but I think we
will demand more of our government than we have previously.   Those
guys who snooze through meetings and do little, are not going to be
tolerated anymore.   We need people who really work for us.
Incumbents will have to prove themselves if they want to be re
elected.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I expect martial law at some point and have said as much
since I began looking at Obama.  Yes, Obama is like the mule in
foundation.  A force that does not fit the mold or have to pass
through our value expectations to seize power.  He has flashed a side
at moments that tells me this man will go for the jugular and knows no
bounds.  He did it locally in Chicago to climb to power and people
really fear him.  Many more will before we see better days.
We need someone strong right now.  Many see those very characteristics
you criticize as his greatest value to us right now.   You yourself
have noted that he is sort of the "anti-bush".   But we won't tolerate
him snoozing either.   And by the way, many would tell you that the
mule is harder working and smarter than either the burro or the horse,
and more useful at times.   I think that is a good analogy for
Obama.   The repubs lost the last election for the same reason that
the dems lost the previous one.   Not quite the right guy with not
quite enough appeal.
Which brings up something I have said before.  We have to stop our
habit of devouring our own leaders.   We need to unite behind efforts
to fix the mess, not wish them ill when they are trying to help.
Post by J***@gmail.com
There is no logical reason for this president to be so aggressive as
he enters the job in destroying our economy.  And you don't get it.
You will my friend.  He is no fool and knows that his words instantly
are reflected in markets worldwide.  A great and solid company, GE is
selling for 8 bucks a share today.  Eight bucks a share!  
I can't see that Obama has any part in that.   I would look at the
company itself and find out what happened from within.   Not look at
the president who is in office only a few weeks and blame him for it.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Go on and say I am fearmongering or worse.  No sweat off my butt. But,
I am damn sure of what I am seeing.  The most corrupt people we have
ever seen run Congress and they are only interested in grabbing what
they can as some of them have got to wonder about our viability at
some point.
You are working yourself into a real snit all for nothing.   You need
to cultivate hope and look to fixing the mess, not painting a blacker
picture than it really is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I said I was really afraid of Obama a while back and was mocked for
it.  Many more will as they see every dollar of their wealth wiped out
- and wonder just what is this guy intending.-
How could he intend anything worse than what he inherited?   He
inherited a total meltdown.   He's listening to good minds, and
honestly trying to fix it.  Granted his fixing it comes from a
different place than you would like, but I think he is doing a better
job than what has been done for 8 prior years.
Try to find the hope that many of us see.   We are not kidding
ourselves, we see a better future for everyone if he succeeds.   If he
fails it won't be from the actions of a few weeks, but from the mess
he inherited being simply too great.
Evelyn
I read your comments and wrote two long responses.  But, at this
point, I've said all I can say.  Good people driven by fear and
ignorance have been herded many times in history to throw over their
governments in soft revolutions and later looked back in wonder at
what they participated in. We stand at those crossroads today and have
abandoned all sense of democracy.  The democratic process is messy but
it allows debate, compromise, ammendment and allows the public some
window on the issues so they can participate as well.  
Since this president has assumed office, he has followed Saul
Aulinsky's fundamental rules to bring about, not revelation, but
revolution.  He has killed any opportunity for any legislative process
and instead pushes massive bills through that nobody can understand
and that are only trojan horses for fundamentally changing our
society.  Soon, our government will control transportation, energy,
health care, banking, insurance, and who knows what else.  Evelyn.
That is not even what Europe has done.  It is socialism as done in
Russia, China, Eastern Europe and elsewhere.  It is oppressive, puts
the citizen in subservient position to beg for any rights and economic
goods and we got here in only a couple weeks.  Governments select
winners and losers, as Obama did on this stimulus bill.  They instill
fear, as Obama was telling Mayors when he wagged his finger, as people
learn that government can take away what it can provide.  That is not
democracy.  That is not our history.  That is slavery and tyranny and
our ancestors fought and died to create better.  Better men then we
have today argued and struggled intellectually to craft a system of
checks and balances between state and federal government, between
different branches of government, between different bodies in the
Legislative body, even within the judiciary.  They intended change to
come slowly as result of process.  Not fiat.  All that has been
overruled for a dicatator.
I can not have discussions with people here.  They do not understand
what is happening and I am tired of the time and energy required.  I
saw this coming more then a year ago and predicted, correctly, that
unlike other election cycles, markets would not climb, but would fall
sharply.  This economic downturn is not as bad as it has been made to
be.  The economy is already showing some bright points but is being
pounded into the ground, purposefully I believe.  A window was opened
by weak leadership from George Bush and elements of the most radical
people in the nation who have climbed to power in key positions in and
out of government.  We are in the middle of a revolution and don't
know it - yet.
Jim,
I put a lot of time and effort into my reply as you put a lot of time
and effort into yours. We have both stated our cases as best we
could, and I might add, WITHOUT being abusive about it. Real
communication can take place if people try to follow "right speech" as
we have been advised by the smartest guy I have ever heard of, in the
bit I posted yesterday.
But, after reading what you just posted here, I feel as though you are
fearing something that is too ephemeral, too trumped up, made up, and
will never, ever happen here. I find your message to be too much
like "the sky is falling" when I see it as "the sun has finally
started to shine after a long dark time".
We Americans LOVE our democracy and we love our freedom too much to
ever compromise them. We love our entrepreneurs and our more visible
businesspeople too much to spoil the fun. The American dream is a
capitalist dream, and we know it can be achieved and won.... and we
like it that way.
We will NEVER become communist, but there are some things that need to
be brought to rein. Can't you see that the middle class is
shrinking? The GDP is shrinking? The unions are losing their
power? The kids can't afford to go to college and the people can't
afford elder care and medical care, and too many necessary products
and services (like medical care and oil prices for instance) are
ruining people?
My mother in law worked hard all her life. She saved and turned off
lights and was very careful with her money. But when she reached the
end of her life, her savings and the money in her house, were eaten up
in a few short years. She had to go on medicaid near the end. It
is almost impossible for "everyman" to prepare for eventualities by
saving up and working hard and all the other good things we have been
taught. THAT is the part of the American dream that many of us
retirees face!
This isn't the retirement I planned for!!!! And it is way worse for
our kids and grandkids.
We need to do something now to fix these inequities. A dead giveaway
in countries that have had revolutions is when the rich get richer and
the poor become very poor and the middle class is bearing it all and
shrinks quickly into the poorer class. THAT is what is happening
here!!!!!!! Can anyone deny it?
And you keep saying (essentially) that the democrats and Obama are not
working in a bipartisan fashion. They tried and were openly
rebuffed. The republicans are not prepared to think out of the
box. They are still talking tax cuts for the rich and trickle down
and all that stuff which has been tried and failed already.
Where have I heard that the definition of stupidity is doing the same
thing over and over again and expecting a different result each
time? When will giving tax cuts for the rich be proven to have
failed in your book? I am convinced that it is a failed tactic
now. I am willing to think out of the box, and I urge you to PLEASE
be hopeful or at least try to be. When we demonize someone we
invariably err. Bush wasn't a monster, he was just not up to the
challenge. Obama is not a monster, he means to do right by the
country, and sometimes a smart newcomer who tries really hard, is a
really good bet.
I believe he really is going to do his best and he has good minds at
his disposal and he isn't hesitating to employ them to pull us out of
this ditch. To imagine he won't have some errors along the way is
folly. But to dwell on those as signs of doomsday is also folly.
Hoarding gold won't help your fears. What might help is buying a big
old house in farm country and hunkering down, learning to can
vegetables (I know you already know how to grow them!) and hoping the
kids won't need to come home and live with you, but having the room
for them if they do..... if you are that afraid for the future. I
would mostly want to tell you not to be afraid, and that your fears
are being fed by propagandists, and that a philosophy of hopefulness
is a better way to approach the future. I am not advising you to
look at the future as rosy-posy-silliness, but as our attitude and
conviction towards beating this will help towards that eventual end.
As for financial advice I think you are probably way more
knowledgeable than I am, but I trust money more than stocks or other
investments. I also trust REAL estate, (which is why they call it
that) and think that will ultimately level out too. In any case,
money can't buy happiness as you have always heard, but it can soften
some of the blows of life.
Best,
Evelyn
Great whiney bloviation, Ev.
J***@gmail.com
2009-02-24 18:39:38 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:56:23 -0800 (PST), Evelyn
Post by Evelyn
Post by J***@gmail.com
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:46:47 -0800 (PST), Evelyn
Hi Jim, I will address a few things you say.   Not all, as you have
posted a lot.
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
Post by J***@gmail.com
These kinds of doomsday stories add to the fear people feel and are
unhelpful.  We need some real leadership that suggests confidence and
better days. We don't have it and any reading of markets can only
support that position.
There are a number of reasons for the current financial crisis
according to the best minds of our time, but not a lot has to do with
our "current leadership" which would seem to be trying very hard to
fix it, by listening to the best minds of our time.   Have patience.
Give some time to see if his ideas work.   Having "confidence" and
belief in "better days" as a positive attitude works both ways.
Giving in to doomsday scenarios does add to the fear, so why feed into
it?
Post by J***@gmail.com
I asked people here what Obama's accomplishments were last January
thru March and frustrated many.  I have managed a large organization
and know that all the theories and naive ideas of newcomers to such
positions take a pounding.  It takes time and hard knocks to make a
seasoned leader.  Obama is not that man.
But he does seem to be learning fast by listening to those with the
seasoning you would require.   He's a fast learner and a hard worker
and the man has vision.  That's how he got elected.   Surely you must
see some of that yourself?
Post by J***@gmail.com
The foundation for this scenario is destruction of our economic model.
If we destroy the structure of our banking, insurance, transportation,
medical, energy, and other backbone industries, we can't sustain.  The
challenge I see is that as we kowtow to environmentalists, socialists,
and others who insist on destroying the systems we depend on, we
destroy ourselves.  
Has it destroyed France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and other countries
who provide more services and medical care to their citizens?
Meanwhile these businesses you value so much have already demonstrated
their ineptitude and have essentially failed all on their own.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Business is the goose that lays the eggs.  It
produces the jobs, the wealth, the tax revenues, and without it,
capital will flee.  The wealthy will set up their own world out of the
reach of the rabble and can flee with their capital.  
They already have, in Swiss accounts and other offshore banks.   They
get multi million dollar bonuses that they pay to themselves, then
have their hand out for public money.   These businesses you believe
in as our salvation are running away with the store.   They don't want
our business, they want plunder.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Don't be fooled.
As we selfdestruct, other nations will make their own decisions and
structure their own solutions and some will likely rise.  My guess is
North Asia will be in best position to adjust to new reality.
You are probably right.   We owe them so much money they already own
us, and our greedy businesspeople have tipped the scales even more.
In life there is always someone ready to take advantage of someone
else when they are down.   It's the way life is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
The mess we are in is not as bad as it looks mg.  The real problem is
we have allowed several trends to go on too long and like winding a
rubberband tighter and tighter, stasis won't return until we unwind a
great deal of that slop.  
There, I agree with you.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Overpriced homes is one trend for example.
Overdependence on government for basics of living is another.  No
goverment can provide the basics of life no matter how much liberals
might believe they can.  As more take from government, more figure out
how to opt out of placing their resources at risk.
Other governments do it, and they manage.
It is not as unmanageable as you seem to think.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I have been considering this mess and begin to ponder converting every
dollar I have to gold and other precious commodities and simply
leaving.  I'll lose my pension and ss.  But, the scenario you list
above pensions are moot.
Gold is heavy and hard to transport, store, and keep.   Diamonds are
not much value when they have been replaced by cubic zirconias with
just as much sparkle, and who wants diamonds anyway when people are
hungry?  You need to have a wealthy class who would buy them for
baubles.
In the scenario mg mentions, this country lived through it before and
they got creative in ways we cannot even remember anymore.   They made
their own clothes, they grew their own food, they moved in under one
roof together and pooled their efforts.   The grandmothers took care
of the babies while the mothers did other work.   They fed people in
bread lines and soup lines.   All agreed it was a bad thing, and
again...... it was created by unregulated business.
There is a saying from those times;
Use it up
Wear it out
Make it do
Or do without
Our way of life is unsustainable as it is right now.   Look at the
children of today.  They have too much stuff.   We all have too much
stuff.   We sell and buy and import more to sell and buy.   We are
chasing our own tails.   We can't sustain ourselves anymore.   Try and
find a pair of shoes made in the USA.   Or sheets, or almost
anything.   It had to come to a crisis.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Before we get to the point of your scenario however, those who live in
fear and believe they NEED government will concede any level of power
to government and we will shift to more powerful and dictatorial
government.  
I doubt that.   Americans aren't going to go that far, but I think we
will demand more of our government than we have previously.   Those
guys who snooze through meetings and do little, are not going to be
tolerated anymore.   We need people who really work for us.
Incumbents will have to prove themselves if they want to be re
elected.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I expect martial law at some point and have said as much
since I began looking at Obama.  Yes, Obama is like the mule in
foundation.  A force that does not fit the mold or have to pass
through our value expectations to seize power.  He has flashed a side
at moments that tells me this man will go for the jugular and knows no
bounds.  He did it locally in Chicago to climb to power and people
really fear him.  Many more will before we see better days.
We need someone strong right now.  Many see those very characteristics
you criticize as his greatest value to us right now.   You yourself
have noted that he is sort of the "anti-bush".   But we won't tolerate
him snoozing either.   And by the way, many would tell you that the
mule is harder working and smarter than either the burro or the horse,
and more useful at times.   I think that is a good analogy for
Obama.   The repubs lost the last election for the same reason that
the dems lost the previous one.   Not quite the right guy with not
quite enough appeal.
Which brings up something I have said before.  We have to stop our
habit of devouring our own leaders.   We need to unite behind efforts
to fix the mess, not wish them ill when they are trying to help.
Post by J***@gmail.com
There is no logical reason for this president to be so aggressive as
he enters the job in destroying our economy.  And you don't get it.
You will my friend.  He is no fool and knows that his words instantly
are reflected in markets worldwide.  A great and solid company, GE is
selling for 8 bucks a share today.  Eight bucks a share!  
I can't see that Obama has any part in that.   I would look at the
company itself and find out what happened from within.   Not look at
the president who is in office only a few weeks and blame him for it.
Post by J***@gmail.com
Go on and say I am fearmongering or worse.  No sweat off my butt. But,
I am damn sure of what I am seeing.  The most corrupt people we have
ever seen run Congress and they are only interested in grabbing what
they can as some of them have got to wonder about our viability at
some point.
You are working yourself into a real snit all for nothing.   You need
to cultivate hope and look to fixing the mess, not painting a blacker
picture than it really is.
Post by J***@gmail.com
I said I was really afraid of Obama a while back and was mocked for
it.  Many more will as they see every dollar of their wealth wiped out
- and wonder just what is this guy intending.-
How could he intend anything worse than what he inherited?   He
inherited a total meltdown.   He's listening to good minds, and
honestly trying to fix it.  Granted his fixing it comes from a
different place than you would like, but I think he is doing a better
job than what has been done for 8 prior years.
Try to find the hope that many of us see.   We are not kidding
ourselves, we see a better future for everyone if he succeeds.   If he
fails it won't be from the actions of a few weeks, but from the mess
he inherited being simply too great.
Evelyn
I read your comments and wrote two long responses.  But, at this
point, I've said all I can say.  Good people driven by fear and
ignorance have been herded many times in history to throw over their
governments in soft revolutions and later looked back in wonder at
what they participated in. We stand at those crossroads today and have
abandoned all sense of democracy.  The democratic process is messy but
it allows debate, compromise, ammendment and allows the public some
window on the issues so they can participate as well.  
Since this president has assumed office, he has followed Saul
Aulinsky's fundamental rules to bring about, not revelation, but
revolution.  He has killed any opportunity for any legislative process
and instead pushes massive bills through that nobody can understand
and that are only trojan horses for fundamentally changing our
society.  Soon, our government will control transportation, energy,
health care, banking, insurance, and who knows what else.  Evelyn.
That is not even what Europe has done.  It is socialism as done in
Russia, China, Eastern Europe and elsewhere.  It is oppressive, puts
the citizen in subservient position to beg for any rights and economic
goods and we got here in only a couple weeks.  Governments select
winners and losers, as Obama did on this stimulus bill.  They instill
fear, as Obama was telling Mayors when he wagged his finger, as people
learn that government can take away what it can provide.  That is not
democracy.  That is not our history.  That is slavery and tyranny and
our ancestors fought and died to create better.  Better men then we
have today argued and struggled intellectually to craft a system of
checks and balances between state and federal government, between
different branches of government, between different bodies in the
Legislative body, even within the judiciary.  They intended change to
come slowly as result of process.  Not fiat.  All that has been
overruled for a dicatator.
I can not have discussions with people here.  They do not understand
what is happening and I am tired of the time and energy required.  I
saw this coming more then a year ago and predicted, correctly, that
unlike other election cycles, markets would not climb, but would fall
sharply.  This economic downturn is not as bad as it has been made to
be.  The economy is already showing some bright points but is being
pounded into the ground, purposefully I believe.  A window was opened
by weak leadership from George Bush and elements of the most radical
people in the nation who have climbed to power in key positions in and
out of government.  We are in the middle of a revolution and don't
know it - yet.
Jim,
I put a lot of time and effort into my reply as you put a lot of time
and effort into yours. We have both stated our cases as best we
could, and I might add, WITHOUT being abusive about it. Real
communication can take place if people try to follow "right speech" as
we have been advised by the smartest guy I have ever heard of, in the
bit I posted yesterday.
But, after reading what you just posted here, I feel as though you are
fearing something that is too ephemeral, too trumped up, made up, and
will never, ever happen here. I find your message to be too much
like "the sky is falling" when I see it as "the sun has finally
started to shine after a long dark time".
We Americans LOVE our democracy and we love our freedom too much to
ever compromise them. We love our entrepreneurs and our more visible
businesspeople too much to spoil the fun. The American dream is a
capitalist dream, and we know it can be achieved and won.... and we
like it that way.
We will NEVER become communist, but there are some things that need to
be brought to rein. Can't you see that the middle class is
shrinking? The GDP is shrinking? The unions are losing their
power? The kids can't afford to go to college and the people can't
afford elder care and medical care, and too many necessary products
and services (like medical care and oil prices for instance) are
ruining people?
My mother in law worked hard all her life. She saved and turned off
lights and was very careful with her money. But when she reached the
end of her life, her savings and the money in her house, were eaten up
in a few short years. She had to go on medicaid near the end. It
is almost impossible for "everyman" to prepare for eventualities by
saving up and working hard and all the other good things we have been
taught. THAT is the part of the American dream that many of us
retirees face!
This isn't the retirement I planned for!!!! And it is way worse for
our kids and grandkids.
We need to do something now to fix these inequities.
NO, we don't have to make our kid's future. We all get 70 or so good
years to do it on this round. We are first and foremost responsible
to do what we do and not cheat others. We can't help treading on
others in the same way a Jianist can't avoid stepping on insects while
walking barefoot. But, we are spending more money on just one bill
then we have ever commited in the past and we do not have that money.
Talking about fiscal responsibility AFTER deciding to send money to
many of the programs that are getting money is just irresponsible.

Ev, assume and your children represent all the people in this nation
and you are in tremendous debt and can borrow money that your children
and grandchildren will have to repay.

Will you go to the movies or see a play?
How about 50 million dollars for some great art for the sitting room?
National Foundation on the Arts and the Humanities
For an additional amount for `Grants and Administration',
$50,000,000,


How much will you spend to fix up some historic building down on the
town square?
589 million dollars????
HISTORIC PRESERVATION FUND For an additional amount for
`Construction', for repair and restoration of roads; construction of
facilities, including energy efficient retrofits of existing
facilities; equipment replacement; preservation and repair of
historical resources within the National Park System; cleanup of
abandoned mine sites on park lands; and other critical infrastructure
projects, $589,000,000.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:8:./temp/~c111QMao44::
Every agency of the government managed to come away with money on this
bill. There was no gleening to see what would stimulate the economy.
Instead it was just throwing money at agencies and even the Washington
Post said to expect a great deal of waste.

We need to be looking for what we really need to support in this
nation and what would really stimulate this economy, if that is the
purpose of the bill.

Our kids and grandkids will pay for this bill. And we are going to
pay for it in rampant inflation sooner then later. That is why
Hillary Clinton was in China begging them to please buy our debt. And
the Chinese are not going to come back and buy our bad paper. They
are saying so in their media and have been very badly burned by us in
this mess. The housing thing destroyed a great many Chinese families
who put their money into American mortgage market. They believed the
debt was backed up by the US government. Now, they are not producing
all the TV, toys, trains, and all the other "Made In China" stuff so
will not be getting the dollars to buy our debt, even if they were
willing to buy it. Same with Arabs and their oil dollars.

Evelyn, I am trying to tell you and others here, no investors are
going to return to buy into our markets when they believe we are
structuring bail out legislation that does not bail out anything or
stimulus legislation that does not stimulate.

Call me nuts. But, the stock market should have skyrocketed as that
stimulus bill was passed and as oil prices fell. Were those two
factors real in helping our economy recover, investors would be
rushing in with confidence. Do you see them doing that?

We are not going to borrow money that our kids have to repay to eat or
pay mortgages. We will instead cut back and do whatever we can to get
buy. We will take a second job to get more income. We will visit
second hand stores for clothing and will cut off kid's cell phones.


A dead giveaway
Post by Evelyn
in countries that have had revolutions is when the rich get richer and
the poor become very poor and the middle class is bearing it all and
shrinks quickly into the poorer class. THAT is what is happening
here!!!!!!! Can anyone deny it?
No it is not what is happening. We are being scared out of our wits
and scared people stop travel, going to restaurants, visiting Vegas
and all the rest and we hoard our income and pray we will survive the
crisis we are told we are in. The point is, the town I live in is
filled with people who have jobs. Same with Oklahoma city that has
one of the lowest unemployment rates in the US. But, we are all told
by our leaders that we are doomed and it can get much worse. The only
hope is to approve anything they offer and don't ask questions.

That is fear and it is not leadership! One can beat a child and tell
them more is coming if they don't comply. Or they can teach and love
the child and the child will bend towards the light.

The greatest loss of wealth to the middle class has been from loss of
their home values, loss of their IRA and other accounts, and now loss
of jobs as people stop spending because they are convinced the end is
near and we must prepare for the worst.

I can't argue with Bill Clinton on this.
Post by Evelyn
And you keep saying (essentially) that the democrats and Obama are not
working in a bipartisan fashion. They tried and were openly
rebuffed.
Ok. Imagine you and I had met and we go on a date. I ask you where
you would like to go an then tell you we are going fishing followed by
a romp in the hay? But, you protest that you don't like fishing and I
ain't that good looking for such a party. But, hey, I did ask you
what you wanted and you are too damn stuck up to cooperate. That is
precisely the bipartisanship that was offered. Evelyn, why do you
think the final bill was held up until being released at 11PM at
night, released in nonsearchable PDF format, and then members had to
vote on it the following afternoon by 2:30????? And then that
critical bill that was so important that not a moment could be lost
since our economic security depended on it, was not signed for FOUR
days??????

How is that bipartisan? It is bipartisan to tell the other party that
we won and have a mandate so take it or leave it. Was it bipartisan
to find three Republican Senators in states where their supporting the
bill was critical probably to their poltical survival, and then taking
everything out of the bill that might have drew real GOP support???

Things like nearly all items for Veterans Affairs were
reduced and the $2 billion the Senate wanted for VA construction was
wiped out altogether. The VA did get one thing: $1 billion for medical
facilities renovation and retooling. and like military construction:
Cut and put into a general pot, a change from targeted money for each
branch of the services. Army construction alone went from $600 million
in the Senate and $900 million in the House to $180 million in the
final bill. But negotiators compromised over a general military
construction fund -- the House wanted $3.75 billion while the Senate
allocated $118 million and settled on $1.45 billion for all services."

The republicans are not prepared to think out of the
Post by Evelyn
box. They are still talking tax cuts for the rich and trickle down
and all that stuff which has been tried and failed already.
Where have I heard that the definition of stupidity is doing the same
thing over and over again and expecting a different result each
time? When will giving tax cuts for the rich be proven to have
failed in your book? I am convinced that it is a failed tactic
now. I am willing to think out of the box, and I urge you to PLEASE
be hopeful or at least try to be. When we demonize someone we
invariably err. Bush wasn't a monster, he was just not up to the
challenge. Obama is not a monster, he means to do right by the
country, and sometimes a smart newcomer who tries really hard, is a
really good bet.
I believe he really is going to do his best and he has good minds at
his disposal and he isn't hesitating to employ them to pull us out of
this ditch. To imagine he won't have some errors along the way is
folly. But to dwell on those as signs of doomsday is also folly.
Hoarding gold won't help your fears. What might help is buying a big
old house in farm country and hunkering down, learning to can
vegetables (I know you already know how to grow them!) and hoping the
kids won't need to come home and live with you, but having the room
for them if they do..... if you are that afraid for the future. I
would mostly want to tell you not to be afraid, and that your fears
are being fed by propagandists, and that a philosophy of hopefulness
is a better way to approach the future. I am not advising you to
look at the future as rosy-posy-silliness, but as our attitude and
conviction towards beating this will help towards that eventual end.
As for financial advice I think you are probably way more
knowledgeable than I am, but I trust money more than stocks or other
investments. I also trust REAL estate, (which is why they call it
that) and think that will ultimately level out too. In any case,
money can't buy happiness as you have always heard, but it can soften
some of the blows of life.
Best,
Evelyn
Chip
2009-02-25 00:07:19 UTC
Permalink
***@gmail.com wrote:
. I
Post by J***@gmail.com
saw this coming more then a year ago and predicted, correctly, that
unlike other election cycles, markets would not climb, but would fall
sharply. This economic downturn is not as bad as it has been made to
be. The economy is already showing some bright points but is being
pounded into the ground, purposefully I believe.
Yep, Jim, you called it once. This is about the 10(20?)th time you told
us. Very unbecoming! But a blind dart thrower can hit a triple 20 now
and then. I'm curious about your overall track record.

Since you repeat yourself that there is some purposeful plan to pound
the economy into the ground, I'll repeat my questions- to what end? by
whom? You neglected to answer them before.

Chip
Rumpelstiltskin
2009-02-24 14:48:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:46:47 -0800 (PST), Evelyn
<snip>
Post by Evelyn
Post by J***@gmail.com
Business is the goose that lays the eggs.  It
produces the jobs, the wealth, the tax revenues, and without it,
capital will flee.  The wealthy will set up their own world out of the
reach of the rabble and can flee with their capital.  
They already have, in Swiss accounts and other offshore banks. They
get multi million dollar bonuses that they pay to themselves, then
have their hand out for public money. These businesses you believe
in as our salvation are running away with the store. They don't want
our business, they want plunder.
The money they got is already lost to the commonwealth,
whether they flee or not. All it's good for, even if they don't
flee, is to employ a few carriagemakers, who can siphon
some of the money back but who still have to be fed by
everybody else.

Much worse is the money that was squandered
ineffectively in lugubrious and inefficient business
structures whose main purpose was to produce a small tip
that could be looted by just a few. What we need to do is
set things up so that the proceeds of future labour is
"more equitably" distributed so that it does a better job of
contributing to the general welfare, and isn't just thrown
away or given to few.

Capitalism is reasonably efficient, as long as it's
closely regulated. If it's not regulated, stuff just
"disappears" like all the money that just "disappeared"
into Iraq. (Somebody got it I guess, I just know I didn't.)
That's the nature of humanity. Lenin wanted to change
the nature of humanity, but that didn't work any better
than Bush's deregulation. You have to work with what
you have, not create a fantasy paradigm based on the
forlorn hope that most people, particularly people known
for trying hard to get all they can for themselves, will
voluntarily look to the benefit of all mankind if nobody's
watching.


<snip>
mg
2009-02-24 14:52:57 UTC
Permalink
. . .
Post by Evelyn
In the scenario mg mentions, this country lived through it before and
they got creative in ways we cannot even remember anymore.   They made
their own clothes, they grew their own food, they moved in under one
roof together and pooled their efforts.   The grandmothers took care
of the babies while the mothers did other work.   They fed people in
bread lines and soup lines.   All agreed it was a bad thing, and
again...... it was created by unregulated business.
There is a saying from those times;
Use it up
Wear it out
Make it do
Or do without
Evelyn
I saw a comedian on TV once who said something like this:

"When our sheets got holes in them, my mother used to make dish towels
out of them. When the dish towels got holes in them, she used to make
dish rags out of them. When the dish rags got holes in them, my mother
used to sew the pieces together and make sheets out of them." :-)
arthur wouk
2009-02-24 20:08:19 UTC
Permalink
In article <475333db-b0ac-482a-acc8-***@q30g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Evelyn <***@gmail.com> wrote:
...
:
:There is a saying from those times;
:
:Use it up
:Wear it out
:Make it do
:Or do without
:

this was not originated in the great depression. it is an old yankee
saying with historic roots in survival in a region not suited to
agriculture. new england was scoured by the last glaciation, and its
major crop is stones. the top soil was moved south.

if you ever wondered whu the stone wall is a marker of new england
boundaries, it was the need to get the stones out of the ground so as
to be able to plow the ground.

much of canada fits into this same category - the cambrian shield
cannot be farmed.
--
"be wary of mathematicians..especially when they speak the truth."
--sT. Augustine
to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Evelyn
2009-02-24 22:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by arthur wouk
...
:There is a saying from those times;
:Use it up
:Wear it out
:Make it do
:Or do without
this was not originated in the great depression. it is an old yankee
saying with historic roots in survival in a region not suited to
agriculture. new england was scoured by the last glaciation, and its
major crop is stones. the top soil was moved south.
if you ever wondered whu the stone wall is  a marker of new england
boundaries, it was the need to get the  stones out of the ground so as
to be able to plow the ground.
much of canada fits into this same category - the cambrian shield
cannot be farmed.
--
"be wary of mathematicians..especially when they speak the truth."
--sT. Augustine
        to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Thanks for letting me know that. Of course, during the great
depression, this saying grew popular again. We may see another wave
of its popularity yet to come, but I am hoping not.

Evelyn
Alan Lichtenstein
2009-02-24 13:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Here's what Michael J. Panzner, the author of "When Giants Fall", says
about America's future. Actually, I think he goes overboard with his
predictions, but I guess he does have a pretty good track record of
"Working hours will rise and pay will fall, forcing many people to
take two or even three jobs, he asserts. We’ll be traveling on foot --
or by bicycle or boat. More and more of us will live in extended-
family households, three generations under one roof. We’ll recycle
rainwater, draw heat from the sun and eat food grown in our own
gardens.
Tax revenue will slump, unraveling safety nets like Social Security
and Medicare. Hospitals will shut. Police budgets will be slashed,
crime will surge, more people will pack guns. The dollar and modern
payment mechanisms may give way to “barter arrangements, alternative
financial instruments and collective support networks,” he says."
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2009/02/18/pessimism_porn_2.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aj9YrEC5DB6A&refer=home
I pretty much said that in the thread I started "The Decline of American
Capitalism." I do indeed foresee a constriction on our quality of life.
I would not be surprised to see some of the things mentioned above
come to pass in my remaining years. And to that all I can say is that
things go full cycle. We went from those circumstances to where we were
immediately preceding the recession, and it looks like we're headed back
there.

I don't see things going that far down, as any decline in our economy
will be offset by an improvement elsewhere. So we'll still have a
monetary system.
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