Discussion:
Anybody Like History ?
(too old to reply)
Gary
2018-07-08 18:17:54 UTC
Permalink
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Emily
2018-07-08 19:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks. It looks very interesting.
Gary
2018-07-09 11:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emily
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks. It looks very interesting.
They did pick out a lot of interesting events over the past
2,500 years. I don't know why, but I have loved history
since I was a teenager. I suppose it amazes me just how
little people have changed in the past 3,000 years. And ..
how often the leaders do the same thing they did 3,000 years
ago :-)
d***@agent.com
2018-07-09 21:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary
Post by Emily
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks. It looks very interesting.
They did pick out a lot of interesting events over the past
2,500 years. I don't know why, but I have loved history
since I was a teenager. I suppose it amazes me just how
little people have changed in the past 3,000 years. And ..
how often the leaders do the same thing they did 3,000 years
ago :-)
The only difference between now and any other time in
history is the level of technology. Human nature is
the same as ever.
mg
2018-07-14 14:10:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
Gary
2018-07-14 15:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.

I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.

For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.

Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.

Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
El Castor
2018-07-14 18:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.

Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
islander
2018-07-14 18:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.

There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
El Castor
2018-07-14 23:41:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
El Castor
2018-07-15 01:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
islander
2018-07-15 02:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."

This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
b***@gmail.com
2018-07-15 04:37:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
Well, it was a good time to invent the atomic bomb which put an end to it. After Hiroshima, Japan knew we had another bomb we could use on Tokyo so they gave up. That's the way I like an ending to a war. Either give up or we will destroy you. I was born 3 months after the bomb was dropped and I slept through the whole thing. I was still inside my mother's tummy about ready to come out.
islander
2018-07-16 12:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
Well, it was a good time to invent the atomic bomb which put an end to it. After Hiroshima, Japan knew we had another bomb we could use on Tokyo so they gave up. That's the way I like an ending to a war. Either give up or we will destroy you. I was born 3 months after the bomb was dropped and I slept through the whole thing. I was still inside my mother's tummy about ready to come out.
The Japanese *thought* we had another bomb, but we didn't. There was
some debate at the time in the US about what to do next if the Japanese
did not surrender. We had the capability to produce additional bombs at
the rate of one every two weeks and a potential target list was
developed should that option become necessary. On the other side, it
was argued that they would have decreasing effect after the initial
shock of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Fortunately two were enough.
El Castor
2018-07-15 07:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
islander
2018-07-15 13:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.

I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
El Castor
2018-07-16 07:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.

BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.

Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
islander
2018-07-16 11:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
El Castor
2018-07-16 20:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
islander
2018-07-16 20:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
El Castor
2018-07-17 08:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?

BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
islander
2018-07-17 14:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
El Castor
2018-07-17 19:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
islander
2018-07-18 01:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.

There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.

As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
El Castor
2018-07-18 09:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
islander
2018-07-18 13:41:13 UTC
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Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
We discussed this to death. You know why Washington and Jefferson
statues should not suffer the same fate as the subjects of Confederate
statues. Or perhaps you weren't paying attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/historians-no-mr-president-washington-and-jefferson-are-not-the-same-as-confederate-generals/?utm_term=.6add0733359b
El Castor
2018-07-18 18:41:57 UTC
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Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
We discussed this to death. You know why Washington and Jefferson
statues should not suffer the same fate as the subjects of Confederate
statues. Or perhaps you weren't paying attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/historians-no-mr-president-washington-and-jefferson-are-not-the-same-as-confederate-generals/?utm_term=.6add0733359b
I know, but do the angry mobs tearing down confederate statues know? I
believe that they don't.
islander
2018-07-19 14:10:02 UTC
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Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
We discussed this to death. You know why Washington and Jefferson
statues should not suffer the same fate as the subjects of Confederate
statues. Or perhaps you weren't paying attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/historians-no-mr-president-washington-and-jefferson-are-not-the-same-as-confederate-generals/?utm_term=.6add0733359b
I know, but do the angry mobs tearing down confederate statues know? I
believe that they don't.
Of course you don't. Or perhaps you are just attempting to divert
attention from the reason that they are being torn down with a straw-man
argument.
El Castor
2018-07-19 18:14:43 UTC
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Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
We discussed this to death. You know why Washington and Jefferson
statues should not suffer the same fate as the subjects of Confederate
statues. Or perhaps you weren't paying attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/historians-no-mr-president-washington-and-jefferson-are-not-the-same-as-confederate-generals/?utm_term=.6add0733359b
I know, but do the angry mobs tearing down confederate statues know? I
believe that they don't.
Of course you don't. Or perhaps you are just attempting to divert
attention from the reason that they are being torn down with a straw-man
argument.
If southerners want to take down their statues, that is their
business. If angry mobs tear down, or deface, a statue of George
Washington or Thomas Jefferson, I will be very annoyed -- very. Will
you?

Do you find this disturbing?
"A Christopher Columbus monument in Baltimore was vandalized overnight
on Monday by protesters rallying against “hate-filled monuments,” the
Baltimore Brew reported. Protesters smashed a hole in the monument,
rendering its inscription, “Sacred to the Memory of Chris. Columbus
Oct. XII MDCC VIIIC,” unreadable"
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/08/21/oldest-christopher-columbus-monument-in-the-us-vandalized-in-baltimore/23156167/

Or this?
"In the last week, Princeton University students who object to having
Woodrow Wilson's name on an academic unit and a residential college
occupied the president's office and left only when promised that the
university would review its use of the Wilson name. "
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/11/23/thomas-jefferson-next-target-students-who-question-honors-figures-who-were-racists

Or this?
"Protesters shroud and surround Jefferson statue"
"The base of the statue was draped with a sign that read “Black Lives
Matter — F—k White Supremacy.” Other members of the crowd carried
signs that said “Thomas Jefferson is a racist and a rapist,” as well
as “End Hate Now.” They also shouted chants of “What do we want?
Justice! When do we want it? Now!”"
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2017/09/protesters-shroud-and-surround-jefferson-statue
islander
2018-07-19 18:53:01 UTC
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Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
We discussed this to death. You know why Washington and Jefferson
statues should not suffer the same fate as the subjects of Confederate
statues. Or perhaps you weren't paying attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/historians-no-mr-president-washington-and-jefferson-are-not-the-same-as-confederate-generals/?utm_term=.6add0733359b
I know, but do the angry mobs tearing down confederate statues know? I
believe that they don't.
Of course you don't. Or perhaps you are just attempting to divert
attention from the reason that they are being torn down with a straw-man
argument.
If southerners want to take down their statues, that is their
business. If angry mobs tear down, or deface, a statue of George
Washington or Thomas Jefferson, I will be very annoyed -- very. Will
you?
Do you find this disturbing?
"A Christopher Columbus monument in Baltimore was vandalized overnight
on Monday by protesters rallying against “hate-filled monuments,” the
Baltimore Brew reported. Protesters smashed a hole in the monument,
rendering its inscription, “Sacred to the Memory of Chris. Columbus
Oct. XII MDCC VIIIC,” unreadable"
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/08/21/oldest-christopher-columbus-monument-in-the-us-vandalized-in-baltimore/23156167/
Or this?
"In the last week, Princeton University students who object to having
Woodrow Wilson's name on an academic unit and a residential college
occupied the president's office and left only when promised that the
university would review its use of the Wilson name. "
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/11/23/thomas-jefferson-next-target-students-who-question-honors-figures-who-were-racists
Or this?
"Protesters shroud and surround Jefferson statue"
"The base of the statue was draped with a sign that read “Black Lives
Matter — F—k White Supremacy.” Other members of the crowd carried
signs that said “Thomas Jefferson is a racist and a rapist,” as well
as “End Hate Now.” They also shouted chants of “What do we want?
Justice! When do we want it? Now!”"
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2017/09/protesters-shroud-and-surround-jefferson-statue
There are laws against vandalizing. I support the laws. But, I also
support peaceful demonstrations. Do you have a problem with that?

Did you really go to Berkeley in the late '50s or early '60s?
El Castor
2018-07-19 20:09:37 UTC
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Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
We discussed this to death. You know why Washington and Jefferson
statues should not suffer the same fate as the subjects of Confederate
statues. Or perhaps you weren't paying attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/historians-no-mr-president-washington-and-jefferson-are-not-the-same-as-confederate-generals/?utm_term=.6add0733359b
I know, but do the angry mobs tearing down confederate statues know? I
believe that they don't.
Of course you don't. Or perhaps you are just attempting to divert
attention from the reason that they are being torn down with a straw-man
argument.
If southerners want to take down their statues, that is their
business. If angry mobs tear down, or deface, a statue of George
Washington or Thomas Jefferson, I will be very annoyed -- very. Will
you?
Do you find this disturbing?
"A Christopher Columbus monument in Baltimore was vandalized overnight
on Monday by protesters rallying against “hate-filled monuments,” the
Baltimore Brew reported. Protesters smashed a hole in the monument,
rendering its inscription, “Sacred to the Memory of Chris. Columbus
Oct. XII MDCC VIIIC,” unreadable"
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/08/21/oldest-christopher-columbus-monument-in-the-us-vandalized-in-baltimore/23156167/
Or this?
"In the last week, Princeton University students who object to having
Woodrow Wilson's name on an academic unit and a residential college
occupied the president's office and left only when promised that the
university would review its use of the Wilson name. "
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/11/23/thomas-jefferson-next-target-students-who-question-honors-figures-who-were-racists
Or this?
"Protesters shroud and surround Jefferson statue"
"The base of the statue was draped with a sign that read “Black Lives
Matter — F—k White Supremacy.” Other members of the crowd carried
signs that said “Thomas Jefferson is a racist and a rapist,” as well
as “End Hate Now.” They also shouted chants of “What do we want?
Justice! When do we want it? Now!”"
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2017/09/protesters-shroud-and-surround-jefferson-statue
There are laws against vandalizing. I support the laws. But, I also
support peaceful demonstrations. Do you have a problem with that?
Absolutely not, but we both know (at least I hope we both do) that the
next step after the yelling and screaming is the axe and fire bomb.
Need I remind you of the $100,000 damage at UC Berkeley caused by
leftists bent on preventing free speech?
Post by islander
Did you really go to Berkeley in the late '50s or early '60s?
Yes, I really did. I was there to see Ludwig in his fountain, and
recruitment for the Tibetan Brigade, but off to OCS before most of the
excitement. When I returned, I rented an apartment near the
university. I was there for the People's Park fiasco, and have fond
memories of half naked girls dancing on a flat bed truck. I had become
somewhat of a poster collector, and still am. Occasionally on a
weekend I snuck around the campus grabbing some of the better protest
posters which I (rightly) believed had historic value. A few years ago
I contributed them to the Bancroft Library.
islander
2018-07-20 13:48:51 UTC
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Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
We discussed this to death. You know why Washington and Jefferson
statues should not suffer the same fate as the subjects of Confederate
statues. Or perhaps you weren't paying attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/historians-no-mr-president-washington-and-jefferson-are-not-the-same-as-confederate-generals/?utm_term=.6add0733359b
I know, but do the angry mobs tearing down confederate statues know? I
believe that they don't.
Of course you don't. Or perhaps you are just attempting to divert
attention from the reason that they are being torn down with a straw-man
argument.
If southerners want to take down their statues, that is their
business. If angry mobs tear down, or deface, a statue of George
Washington or Thomas Jefferson, I will be very annoyed -- very. Will
you?
Do you find this disturbing?
"A Christopher Columbus monument in Baltimore was vandalized overnight
on Monday by protesters rallying against “hate-filled monuments,” the
Baltimore Brew reported. Protesters smashed a hole in the monument,
rendering its inscription, “Sacred to the Memory of Chris. Columbus
Oct. XII MDCC VIIIC,” unreadable"
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/08/21/oldest-christopher-columbus-monument-in-the-us-vandalized-in-baltimore/23156167/
Or this?
"In the last week, Princeton University students who object to having
Woodrow Wilson's name on an academic unit and a residential college
occupied the president's office and left only when promised that the
university would review its use of the Wilson name. "
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/11/23/thomas-jefferson-next-target-students-who-question-honors-figures-who-were-racists
Or this?
"Protesters shroud and surround Jefferson statue"
"The base of the statue was draped with a sign that read “Black Lives
Matter — F—k White Supremacy.” Other members of the crowd carried
signs that said “Thomas Jefferson is a racist and a rapist,” as well
as “End Hate Now.” They also shouted chants of “What do we want?
Justice! When do we want it? Now!”"
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2017/09/protesters-shroud-and-surround-jefferson-statue
There are laws against vandalizing. I support the laws. But, I also
support peaceful demonstrations. Do you have a problem with that?
Absolutely not, but we both know (at least I hope we both do) that the
next step after the yelling and screaming is the axe and fire bomb.
Need I remind you of the $100,000 damage at UC Berkeley caused by
leftists bent on preventing free speech?
Post by islander
Did you really go to Berkeley in the late '50s or early '60s?
Yes, I really did. I was there to see Ludwig in his fountain, and
recruitment for the Tibetan Brigade, but off to OCS before most of the
excitement. When I returned, I rented an apartment near the
university. I was there for the People's Park fiasco, and have fond
memories of half naked girls dancing on a flat bed truck. I had become
somewhat of a poster collector, and still am. Occasionally on a
weekend I snuck around the campus grabbing some of the better protest
posters which I (rightly) believed had historic value. A few years ago
I contributed them to the Bancroft Library.
Then you should understand that sometimes demonstrations are a product
of strong opposition to an issue and that sometimes a few people get out
of control. I think that I've mentioned here before that when I was in
undergraduate school we had shirt tail parades which were nothing more
than a way for students to blow off some steam before a football game.
Nothing very serious, but there were always a few who wanted to turn
over a car or do something equally destructive.

When people in Watts rioted (and other riots in the '60s), it was a lot
more serious and it made no sense at all to burn down your own
community. Except that the frustration of people who felt hopeless
boiled over in violence. Things are a lot more peaceful these days and
we should be thankful for that.
El Castor
2018-07-20 18:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
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Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
We discussed this to death. You know why Washington and Jefferson
statues should not suffer the same fate as the subjects of Confederate
statues. Or perhaps you weren't paying attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/historians-no-mr-president-washington-and-jefferson-are-not-the-same-as-confederate-generals/?utm_term=.6add0733359b
I know, but do the angry mobs tearing down confederate statues know? I
believe that they don't.
Of course you don't. Or perhaps you are just attempting to divert
attention from the reason that they are being torn down with a straw-man
argument.
If southerners want to take down their statues, that is their
business. If angry mobs tear down, or deface, a statue of George
Washington or Thomas Jefferson, I will be very annoyed -- very. Will
you?
Do you find this disturbing?
"A Christopher Columbus monument in Baltimore was vandalized overnight
on Monday by protesters rallying against “hate-filled monuments,” the
Baltimore Brew reported. Protesters smashed a hole in the monument,
rendering its inscription, “Sacred to the Memory of Chris. Columbus
Oct. XII MDCC VIIIC,” unreadable"
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/08/21/oldest-christopher-columbus-monument-in-the-us-vandalized-in-baltimore/23156167/
Or this?
"In the last week, Princeton University students who object to having
Woodrow Wilson's name on an academic unit and a residential college
occupied the president's office and left only when promised that the
university would review its use of the Wilson name. "
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/11/23/thomas-jefferson-next-target-students-who-question-honors-figures-who-were-racists
Or this?
"Protesters shroud and surround Jefferson statue"
"The base of the statue was draped with a sign that read “Black Lives
Matter — F—k White Supremacy.” Other members of the crowd carried
signs that said “Thomas Jefferson is a racist and a rapist,” as well
as “End Hate Now.” They also shouted chants of “What do we want?
Justice! When do we want it? Now!”"
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2017/09/protesters-shroud-and-surround-jefferson-statue
There are laws against vandalizing. I support the laws. But, I also
support peaceful demonstrations. Do you have a problem with that?
Absolutely not, but we both know (at least I hope we both do) that the
next step after the yelling and screaming is the axe and fire bomb.
Need I remind you of the $100,000 damage at UC Berkeley caused by
leftists bent on preventing free speech?
Post by islander
Did you really go to Berkeley in the late '50s or early '60s?
Yes, I really did. I was there to see Ludwig in his fountain, and
recruitment for the Tibetan Brigade, but off to OCS before most of the
excitement. When I returned, I rented an apartment near the
university. I was there for the People's Park fiasco, and have fond
memories of half naked girls dancing on a flat bed truck. I had become
somewhat of a poster collector, and still am. Occasionally on a
weekend I snuck around the campus grabbing some of the better protest
posters which I (rightly) believed had historic value. A few years ago
I contributed them to the Bancroft Library.
Then you should understand that sometimes demonstrations are a product
of strong opposition to an issue and that sometimes a few people get out
of control. I think that I've mentioned here before that when I was in
undergraduate school we had shirt tail parades which were nothing more
than a way for students to blow off some steam before a football game.
Nothing very serious, but there were always a few who wanted to turn
over a car or do something equally destructive.
When people in Watts rioted (and other riots in the '60s), it was a lot
more serious and it made no sense at all to burn down your own
community. Except that the frustration of people who felt hopeless
boiled over in violence. Things are a lot more peaceful these days and
we should be thankful for that.
Well, I do admit to walking into a book store on Telegraph Avenue
after a demonstration and being driven out by lingering tear gas. (-8
islander
2018-07-20 19:49:51 UTC
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Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Sorry that she ruined your happy story. You got a glimpse of what life
was like for a black woman at that time. You can add that to the list
of civil rights abuses during the war, for example the interment of
people of Japanese heritage. Then there was the Tuskegee syphilis
experiment. Gays were discharged if found out, often sent back home via
San Francisco from the Pacific theater. It was not a good time to be
"different."
This is not to diminish the contributions of the men and women who
fought including those who did amazing things in the factories of the
time. But, not all history is about the good stuff.
True, but the Feds bill this site as a tribute to Rosy The Riveter --
not something else.
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
On that we can agree, but I would include those Rosie the Riveters who
stayed at home and worked night and day to keep the industries going
that supplied those men. They all did their part.
Perhaps they deserve even more credit because of the abuse that they had
to put up with. It was a different time, but not a particularly good
time for women and minorities.
OK, you win. I give up. The men who worked night and day and died in
WWII saving the world from domination by Germany and Japan, were
bigoted worthless pieces of racist anti-feminist crap, not even worthy
of mention. Lowly bastards of the quality of criminal slave owners
like Washington and Jefferson. Satisfied?
BTW -- Your money has probably paid for the slaughter of tens of
thousands of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cattle. Future generations
will recognize you for the worthless murderous blood thirsty bastard
that you are. Right?
Hyperbole!
Or the uncomfortable truth? Viewing the morality of one era in the
light of another has always seemed like a hypocritical fools errand,
but don't let me stop you. There must be a bronze statue somewhere on
Orcas that needs tearing down. Get to work. History needs to be
punished.
There are no bronze statues here as far as I know. Definitely not any
to confederate soldiers (or any soldiers for that matter). There may be
one to a pig on San Juan Island to commemorate the Pig War, but I doubt
it. We are pretty much a peaceful lot.
There is a big anchor on top of Turtleback Mountain and no one knows how
it got there. It looks pretty ancient. Fodder for speculation.
As to morality, Pinker claims that we are becoming more moral and builds
a pretty compelling argument to that effect, especially in the context
of human rights.
This isn't a trick question, but one that actually concerns me. After
the confederate statues are gone, why wouldn't the same people go
after Washington and Jefferson? Is dynamite in Mt Rushmore's future?
Should it be?
We discussed this to death. You know why Washington and Jefferson
statues should not suffer the same fate as the subjects of Confederate
statues. Or perhaps you weren't paying attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/historians-no-mr-president-washington-and-jefferson-are-not-the-same-as-confederate-generals/?utm_term=.6add0733359b
I know, but do the angry mobs tearing down confederate statues know? I
believe that they don't.
Of course you don't. Or perhaps you are just attempting to divert
attention from the reason that they are being torn down with a straw-man
argument.
If southerners want to take down their statues, that is their
business. If angry mobs tear down, or deface, a statue of George
Washington or Thomas Jefferson, I will be very annoyed -- very. Will
you?
Do you find this disturbing?
"A Christopher Columbus monument in Baltimore was vandalized overnight
on Monday by protesters rallying against “hate-filled monuments,” the
Baltimore Brew reported. Protesters smashed a hole in the monument,
rendering its inscription, “Sacred to the Memory of Chris. Columbus
Oct. XII MDCC VIIIC,” unreadable"
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/08/21/oldest-christopher-columbus-monument-in-the-us-vandalized-in-baltimore/23156167/
Or this?
"In the last week, Princeton University students who object to having
Woodrow Wilson's name on an academic unit and a residential college
occupied the president's office and left only when promised that the
university would review its use of the Wilson name. "
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/11/23/thomas-jefferson-next-target-students-who-question-honors-figures-who-were-racists
Or this?
"Protesters shroud and surround Jefferson statue"
"The base of the statue was draped with a sign that read “Black Lives
Matter — F—k White Supremacy.” Other members of the crowd carried
signs that said “Thomas Jefferson is a racist and a rapist,” as well
as “End Hate Now.” They also shouted chants of “What do we want?
Justice! When do we want it? Now!”"
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2017/09/protesters-shroud-and-surround-jefferson-statue
There are laws against vandalizing. I support the laws. But, I also
support peaceful demonstrations. Do you have a problem with that?
Absolutely not, but we both know (at least I hope we both do) that the
next step after the yelling and screaming is the axe and fire bomb.
Need I remind you of the $100,000 damage at UC Berkeley caused by
leftists bent on preventing free speech?
Post by islander
Did you really go to Berkeley in the late '50s or early '60s?
Yes, I really did. I was there to see Ludwig in his fountain, and
recruitment for the Tibetan Brigade, but off to OCS before most of the
excitement. When I returned, I rented an apartment near the
university. I was there for the People's Park fiasco, and have fond
memories of half naked girls dancing on a flat bed truck. I had become
somewhat of a poster collector, and still am. Occasionally on a
weekend I snuck around the campus grabbing some of the better protest
posters which I (rightly) believed had historic value. A few years ago
I contributed them to the Bancroft Library.
Then you should understand that sometimes demonstrations are a product
of strong opposition to an issue and that sometimes a few people get out
of control. I think that I've mentioned here before that when I was in
undergraduate school we had shirt tail parades which were nothing more
than a way for students to blow off some steam before a football game.
Nothing very serious, but there were always a few who wanted to turn
over a car or do something equally destructive.
When people in Watts rioted (and other riots in the '60s), it was a lot
more serious and it made no sense at all to burn down your own
community. Except that the frustration of people who felt hopeless
boiled over in violence. Things are a lot more peaceful these days and
we should be thankful for that.
Well, I do admit to walking into a book store on Telegraph Avenue
after a demonstration and being driven out by lingering tear gas. (-8
I regret that I was not more actively involved in those days. I was in
college in Atlanta as the civil rights movement was heating up and I was
in the DC area through the '60s. But, I was pretty conservative then
and mostly involved in my continued education and career. I suppose
that I could stuff some flowers down the barrels of troops, but the
sweet young things would probably be more effective. Can you imagine
standing up to bayonets?
Loading Image...
b***@gmail.com
2018-07-22 00:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Absolutely not, but we both know (at least I hope we both do) that the
next step after the yelling and screaming is the axe and fire bomb.
Need I remind you of the $100,000 damage at UC Berkeley caused by
leftists bent on preventing free speech?
Post by islander
Did you really go to Berkeley in the late '50s or early '60s?
Yes, I really did. I was there to see Ludwig in his fountain, and
recruitment for the Tibetan Brigade, but off to OCS before most of the
excitement. When I returned, I rented an apartment near the
university. I was there for the People's Park fiasco, and have fond
memories of half naked girls dancing on a flat bed truck. I had become
somewhat of a poster collector, and still am. Occasionally on a
weekend I snuck around the campus grabbing some of the better protest
posters which I (rightly) believed had historic value. A few years ago
I contributed them to the Bancroft Library.
Then you should understand that sometimes demonstrations are a product
of strong opposition to an issue and that sometimes a few people get out
of control. I think that I've mentioned here before that when I was in
undergraduate school we had shirt tail parades which were nothing more
than a way for students to blow off some steam before a football game.
Nothing very serious, but there were always a few who wanted to turn
over a car or do something equally destructive.
When people in Watts rioted (and other riots in the '60s), it was a lot
more serious and it made no sense at all to burn down your own
community. Except that the frustration of people who felt hopeless
boiled over in violence. Things are a lot more peaceful these days and
we should be thankful for that.
I rode a motorcycle through Watts in 1965 during the riots and didn't encounter any problems. It all looked peaceful to me. I would have taken another route but it was the shortest route I could find to where I was going. I never got off the motorcycle just in case I had to run.
Gary
2018-07-17 11:44:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 04:48:11 -0700, islander
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Then perhaps the right thing to do is to tell the whole story about Rosy
the Riveter, not just the happy story.
I suspect that the story teller will probably lose her job. People
prefer to forget the bad stuff.
Don't hold your breath. BTW -- my problem was not with getting the
good and the bad -- it seemed to me that we got mostly bad, and very
little good. However, I admit I was surprised that Trump didn't find
his way into the talk.
BTW, if you read my reply to Bill Bowden, ""More than 310,000 women
worked in the U.S. aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of
the industry’s total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the
pre-war years)." My father was stationed at 29 Palms for part of the
war. We lived in a room over a bar. The only heat came from a hole cut
in the floor. My dad was a strong man, but at one point went for two
weeks with almost no sleep, and literally collapsed. I remember him
telling me a story that literally brought tears to his eyes. He was
flying in a group of planes towing gliders over the Rocky Mountains.
They iced up and were forced to cut the gliders loose.
Forgive me, if I believe they were in fact the greatest generation.
IIRC, you have read a lot of WWII history as have I and the men who
served deserve all the accolades that we can give them. Both my
brothers served in the pacific, one in fighter command and the other in
bombers. My first wife's father served in the 101st in Europe and
parachuted into France on D-Day. I cannot imagine the horrors that they
witnessed, far surpassing anything since that time. Before I retired, I
visited Normandy and walked the beaches where so many died. I'll never
fully appreciate how those men had the courage to advance into almost
certain death to win that beachhead. Yes, they were the greatest
generation.
My father was killed in the Pacific in 1943. In 1952, my
mother and I lived in England -- where my step-father as
stationed. We took a trip to France -- where he had served
in combat during WW2. He fought in a battle near Colmar.
We walked up the little dirt road at the foot of what they
called "crucifix hill". It's hard to believe but you could
hardly walk up the road without stepping on some old
bullets from that battle. Scattered all over ! I picked up
-- and still have -- a handful of 8 mm rifle bullets.

While there, we stayed in a hotel in Ribeauville France.
Saw the ruins of an old castle. Beautiful country !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribeauvill%C3%A9
b***@gmail.com
2018-07-15 04:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Was there actually a woman named 'Rosie' who did riveting during the war? I guess there were thousands of women who did men's jobs while they went to war. Maybe there was one named "Rosa the riveter" who was a Mexican?
El Castor
2018-07-15 08:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by El Castor
Post by El Castor
Post by islander
Post by El Castor
Post by Gary
Post by mg
Post by Gary
If anyone enjoys the various periods of history -- here is a
site with an index to a lot of interesting things.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/eyindx.htm
Thanks, Gary. I filed that away for future use. I do like some types
of history, but not all types.
I'm the same way. It would bore me to read the continuing
history of man from about 2,000 BC to present. Or even
shorter periods. Like Medieval Europe. But there are
"events" over the past 4,000 years that I find very
interesting.
I've wondered why I've been drawn to it since I was a
teenager. Maybe ... it was because I was raised in a
family of mostly religious people. But ... I never was a
"believer", myself. So maybe my love of history was an
attempt to find an alternative to the religious stories I
had heard.
For instance -- the two most accepted theories as to how man
came on this Earth are the Biblical one and Darwin's. I've
always doubted both.
Have humans been interested in the subject of "where they
came from" for very long ? I would suggest that is the
reason religion was accepted by ancient man. It's purpose
was to tell us -- where we came from -- and where we are
going.
Oh, well ! History can develop into an interesting subject
-- with possible answers :-)
We have a national park of sorts near here -- the Rosie the Riveter
exhibit on the waterfront in Richmond California. When the war began,
Henry J. Kaiser put together a shipyard almost overnight, and began
using automobile assembly techniques to build Liberty Ships. He
cranked out those ships at a truly amazing pace. The workers were
young women and men to old to serve in the military. A lot were Black,
having come out here from the South. They have lots of pictures and
artifacts, and some short documentary movies. The star is a 97 year
old park ranger, a Black woman, who gives lectures of her first hand
experience. A problem (from my perspective) is that she was for most
of her life an employee of various Democrat politicians, until she
became a park ranger. Her lecture boiled down to an unending rant
against a "Greatest Generation" which she said never existed,
outrageous mistreatment of women by the men they worked with, and
endless rants about racism and sexism -- over and over again -- and
again --- and again. I would have walked out, but I was the designated
driver, so I sat through it.
Anyhow, that was a reminder that eye witness accounts of history may
depend on the eyes witnessing it.
Or perhaps by those who experienced it? It was a different time and
there is no question but that women and blacks were subjected to
discrimination on the job, even sexual abuse by supervisors.
There are an abundance of publications on the topic.
And there is also an interesting and happy story that could be told --
and was not.
Those black women just didn't know their place!
This woman knew her place altogether too well. Rosie the Riveter and
men like my father who flew 15,000 hours during the war, until he
literally dropped -- they were truly the greatest generation. To hear
this woman explain that the story of the "greatest generation" was an
undeserving myth, was strange considering that we were in a national
monument devoted to Rosie the Riveter, and the men and women who
literally assembled and launched a Liberty Ship in 24 hours. BTW, the
room was not well lit, but I wouldn't have known she was Black if she
hadn't told us over and over again.
Was there actually a woman named 'Rosie' who did riveting during the war? I guess there were thousands of women who did men's jobs while they went to war. Maybe there was one named "Rosa the riveter" who was a Mexican?
Am interesting stat -- "More than 310,000 women worked in the U.S.
aircraft industry in 1943, making up 65 percent of the industry’s
total workforce (compared to just 1 percent in the pre-war years). The
munitions industry also heavily recruited women workers, as
illustrated by the U.S. government’s Rosie the Riveter propaganda
campaign."
https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/rosie-the-riveter

Rosie was a recruiting image on a Westinghouse poster, but may have
been a real woman.

"Who Was Rosie the Riveter?
The true identity of Rosie the Riveter has been the subject of
considerable debate. For years, the inspiration for the woman in the
Westinghouse poster was believed to be Geraldine Hoff Doyle of
Michigan, who worked in a Navy machine shop during World War II.
Other sources claim that Rosie was actually Rose Will Monroe, who
worked as a riveter at the Willow Run Bomber Plant near Detroit.
Monroe also was featured in a promotional film for war bonds.
And Rosalind P. Walter from Long Island, New York, is known to be the
Rosie from the popular song by Evans and Loeb. Walter was, in fact, a
riveter on Corsair fighter planes."
https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/rosie-the-riveter

My father had a pilots license, and enlisted after Pearl Harbor. At 35
he was too old for combat, so they assigned him to the Army Air
Transport command. He mainly flew planes, and towed gliders, from West
Coast aircraft factories to the East Coast and out to the Pacific.
Women pilots, called Wasps, were recruited for the same job. As was
common among WWII pilots, he had a thing called a short snorter -- a
roll of currency taped together, starting with a dollar bill, and the
rest foreign. This got autographed by other pilots. Several of the
signers were Wasps. After he died, I donated it to a museum.
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