Discussion:
Dark side of illegal immigration; crime stats.
(too old to reply)
w***@yahoo.com
2009-11-29 13:35:14 UTC
Permalink
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime_summary.html

Apparently America and it's worthless government find the presence of
these invaders acceptable!

ted

By the way, many juristictions don't bother to collect or
archive stats on illegal alien crime.

Picture them burying their wimpish heads in the sand.
GLOBALIST
2009-11-29 14:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Very legitimate source of information....I hate anyone not like me dot
com.
Gray Ghost
2009-11-29 15:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by GLOBALIST
Very legitimate source of information....I hate anyone not like me dot
com.
Nope just, supporters and enablers of the invaders.
--
Al Gore didn't invent the internet, but he did invent Global Warming.
s***@italianmafia.com
2009-11-29 14:32:32 UTC
Permalink
about 300 years ago there was another crime committed by illegal
immigrants to USA. Mass killing of native americans.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
By the way, many juristictions don't bother to collect or
archive stats on illegal alien crime.
Picture them burying their wimpish heads in the sand.
Gray Ghost
2009-11-29 15:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
about 300 years ago there was another crime committed by illegal
immigrants to USA. Mass killing of native americans.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
By the way, many juristictions don't bother to collect or
archive stats on illegal alien crime.
Picture them burying their wimpish heads in the sand.
Why don't you douse yourelf in gasoline and light yourself on fire in
protest?
--
Al Gore didn't invent the internet, but he did invent Global Warming.
Me, ...again!
2009-11-29 16:24:17 UTC
Permalink
For the last 3,000 years, there were mass killings in India, by Indians,
of Indians. Its in the history books.

And, all over the rest of the world, mass killings, too. But racist-bigot
"sopranos" wants to wear blinders and throw out half of his brain.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
about 300 years ago there was another crime committed by illegal
immigrants to USA. Mass killing of native americans.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
By the way, many juristictions don't bother to collect or
archive stats on illegal alien crime.
Picture them burying their wimpish heads in the sand.
s***@italianmafia.com
2009-11-29 17:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants, just few generations
before.
How would you feel if some group of Indians who
immigrated to USA in 1960s and became citizens,
now press for complete stopping of immigration.
Hypocrite? Yes
That's what you whites are doing.

In article <***@osmium.mv.net>, Me, ...again!
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
For the last 3,000 years, there were mass killings in India, by Indians,
of Indians. Its in the history books.
And, all over the rest of the world, mass killings, too. But racist-bigot
"sopranos" wants to wear blinders and throw out half of his brain.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
about 300 years ago there was another crime committed by illegal
immigrants to USA. Mass killing of native americans.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
By the way, many juristictions don't bother to collect or
archive stats on illegal alien crime.
Picture them burying their wimpish heads in the sand.
Me, ...again!
2009-11-29 17:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.

80% of the people in the USA were born in the USA and so were their
parents.

20% who are here came here (half of which are illegal), uninvited except
by exploitative corporations, after being born someplace else where their
home country can't make enough jobs for their own people.

just few generations
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
before.
Back before around 1900 when immigrants were coming to sponge off the
society and drive down wages and restrictive immigration laws came on the
books
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
How would you feel if some group of Indians who
immigrated to USA in 1960s and became citizens,
now press for complete stopping of immigration.
I have actually met Mexicans who came legally and persons of Mexican
descent (born in the USA of Mexican parents) who feel that immigration
should be cut back drastically.

All the US born people who were displaced by immigrants have a right to
benefits of ones own country of birth rather than have those rights taken
away and handed to immigrants whose only choice is to work for cheap while
the bosses make more money by exploitation.

So, your sentence, above, does not tell the whole story, just like your
hightly limited knowledge of world history ignores the fact that serious
wars were taking place in all areas of the world where humans lives and
not just due to "whites." Maybe it will sink into your thick skull
that other (non-white) peoples carried out warfare, too, on a large scale.

All the other historical evils of human culture (murder, theft, rape,
sati, untouchables, caste discrimination, slavery) have been present in
Indian history since writing began.

Maybe one day you will think about all of this and read some history with
an open mind. I spent the last ten years reading over 200 books, mostly on
history, economics, and economic history and there are no innocent people,
anywhere, and all issues that ever came up did not have simple and
uncomplicated details
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Hypocrite? Yes
That's what you whites are doing.
Still a very very racist sentence. It is demagogery. It contributes
nothing constructive. At least you could have thanked all those white US
CEOs who took away millions of jobs from Americans and dumped them
into India, like rain, that helped little dinky areas of India (eg
Bangalore, Mumbai, Heyderabad, etc.) become modern.

//////////////////////////////
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
For the last 3,000 years, there were mass killings in India, by Indians,
of Indians. Its in the history books.
And, all over the rest of the world, mass killings, too. But racist-bigot
"sopranos" wants to wear blinders and throw out half of his brain.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
about 300 years ago there was another crime committed by illegal
immigrants to USA. Mass killing of native americans.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
By the way, many juristictions don't bother to collect or
archive stats on illegal alien crime.
Picture them burying their wimpish heads in the sand.
s***@italianmafia.com
2009-11-29 21:20:36 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@osmium.mv.net>, Me,
...again! says...
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
80% of the people u ok n the USA were born in the USA and so were their
parents.
and so are children of illegal immigrants from Mexico whose dad and
mom clean toilets, pick up garbage or work in car wash or restaurants.
Also children of Indian H1B holders who are born in USA. Any of them
may end up in Yale/Harvard at the expense of a white American.

a stolen property is still stolen. if your grand father stole a factory
and you got it as inheritance from your dad, does it make it any more legal
and morally right than an empire Bill Gates built based on hard work
of immigrants.
Post by Me, ...again!
20% who are here came here (half of which are illegal), uninvited except
by exploitative corporations, after being born someplace else where their
home country can't make enough jobs for their own people.
potato famine??? what drove whites to US in the first place
from Ireland. they didn't come to USA for honeymoon ?

anyhow I am not in favor of illegal immigrants.

Look moron, if you don't want competition to keep your jobs safe,
it is a perfectly acceptable reason to keep immigrants out. But
don't bait with your so called intellectual reasoning.
climber
2009-11-29 22:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
...again! says...
I am amused by the squeals and bleats from an assortment of who knows what.
Depressing to see morons dragging out that old shopworn "Moral
Equivalency".
Yes, Native Americans were ill-treated. That's in the past. Now we
have an internal
crisis cause by illegal aliens. (as to their employers I suggest,
after due process of
law, that public hanging are deserved) Recall when DDT was touted
as the savior
of mankind? Fact is that until the 1960's most immigrants were of
european origin.
Worked well. Japan is now recruiting immigrants from all over the
world. However,
they must be racial Japanese.

American Eagle, only bird that craps in it's own nest.

Things are going to get very nasty in a few years.

climber

http://www.americanworker.org/ American Worker
Me, ...again!
2009-11-29 23:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
...again! says...
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
80% of the people u ok n the USA were born in the USA and so were their
parents.
and so are children of illegal immigrants from Mexico whose dad and
mom clean toilets, pick up garbage or work in car wash or restaurants.
If they came illegally, then its too bad for them when they get caught.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Also children of Indian H1B holders who are born in USA.
Aren't they lucky.

Any of them
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
may end up in Yale/Harvard at the expense of a white American.
All depends on whether merit is involved in admissions. And, foreigners
fail and fluck out of Harvard, too.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
a stolen property is still stolen.
And, Indians murdered in India by other Indians are Indians NOT murdered
by whites.

if your grand father stole a factory
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
and you got it as inheritance from your dad,
But you wouldn't mind, at all would you, if your parents gave birth to you
in the USA, would you?

does it make it any more legal
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
and morally right than an empire Bill Gates built based on hard work
of immigrants.
Bill Gates empire never hired immigrants in the beginning. Most of his
monopoly was started with US born programmers, just like the majority of
US companies were hiring local people until the bean-counter MBAs got the
idea of arbitraged cheap labor and all kinds of tricks to discriminate
against local US nationals began to be practiced to hand nice jobs at
cheap wages to immigrant Indians who then got swelled heads and
egotistical personalities because of this favoritism.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Post by Me, ...again!
20% who are here came here (half of which are illegal), uninvited except
by exploitative corporations, after being born someplace else where their
home country can't make enough jobs for their own people.
potato famine??? what drove whites to US in the first place
from Ireland.
US was a land of opportunity, Ireland suffered crop failure for 2-3 years
in a row. What do starving Indians do? Starve or emigrate.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
they didn't come to USA for honeymoon ?
Yeah, actually they did.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
anyhow I am not in favor of illegal immigrants.
Fine.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Look moron,
You ever look in the mirror? No, because you don't want to face the fact
that there was as much shit in India, over 3,000 years, as anywhere else,
maybe more.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
if you don't want competition to keep your jobs safe,
it is a perfectly acceptable reason to keep immigrants out. But
don't bait with your so called intellectual reasoning.
When guys like you persist in pointing your finger at US history as some
kind of specific evidence that "whites" did much worse things than any
other people, then I'm going to call you a liar and point to all the
history books in the world that are infinitely more honese and honorable
than you about confessing that until very recently, all peoples carried
out wars, crimes against their own people, crimes against other people,
and all manner of attrocities.

So, I also notice that you completely failed to demonstrate any sources or
refernces to any literature, scholarly studies, scientific reports, or any
other evidence that Indians in India were any kind of saint, angels, or
nice peaceful innocent human beings. So, take your 3,000 years of caste
discrimination, sati, untouchables, wars, corruption, and all the rest and
eat it.
kamal
2009-11-30 06:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
so? does it mean that the people who gave birth to your parents or
their parents and stole the land from native americans and gave it to
you -actually owned the land?
Post by Me, ...again!
80% of the people in the USA were born in the USA and so were their
parents.
so? did their ancestors fall from the heavens with an american
passport in hand? or did they come by boats the same way illegal
mexicans do?
Post by Me, ...again!
20% who are here came here (half of which are illegal), uninvited except
they are invited but not given legal status by employers, politicians,
their henchmen and of course law enforcement personnel. Nobody in his
senses would want to trade on his mexican cost of living with an
american one -if there weren't a job waiting for him once he gate-
crashes into the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
by exploitative corporations, after being born someplace else where their
home country can't make enough jobs for their own people.
your ancestors wouldn't have ended up here if it weren't for their
desire to search for a living. For that matter, they wouldn't have
left africa but for drought and tried settling down in europe.
Post by Me, ...again!
  just few generations
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
before.
Back before around 1900 when immigrants were coming to sponge off the
society and drive down wages and restrictive immigration laws came on the
books
Immigration laws were created by politicians and not by divine decree.
In fact, most of the labour (be it legal or otherwise) that comes into
the US comes with the blessings of corporations and the politicians
they bribe. Tom tancredo's ancestors gate-crashed into the US the same
way the people he intends to prosecute do. God didin't give his
ancestors a special right to settle down in the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
How would you feel if some group of Indians who
immigrated to USA in 1960s and became citizens,
now press for complete stopping of immigration.
I have actually met Mexicans who came legally and persons of Mexican
descent (born in the USA of Mexican parents) who feel that immigration
should be cut back drastically.
yes-nobody wants competition and/or over-crowding. That is a
legitimate oncern. The problem comes when you want them in the US -but
under restricted rights because the opprutunities back home are so
few.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the US born people who were displaced by immigrants have a right to
benefits of ones own country of birth rather than have those rights taken
the benefit of birth is that you can close down immigration (legal or
otherwise). If you want people to work for you in return for letting
them settle down in the US -that is exploitation/slavery.
Post by Me, ...again!
away and handed to immigrants whose only choice is to work for cheap while
the bosses make more money by exploitation.
yes-the dispute about illegal immigration is mostly a dispute about
corporations keeping the benefits of slavery to themselves and not
passing them down to people lower down the value chain. If it was a
dispute about over-crowding, then you would be looking to proecute
employers (and not employees) and also to close down visa issuing
consulatres.
Post by Me, ...again!
So, your sentence, above, does not tell the whole story, just like your
hightly limited knowledge of world history ignores the fact that serious
wars were taking place in all areas of the world where humans lives and
not just due to "whites." Maybe it will sink into your thick skull
that other (non-white) peoples carried out warfare, too, on a large scale.
yes -they did, but whites were more successful at winning wars than
others. To the victor go the spoils and also the blame.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the other historical evils of human culture (murder, theft, rape,
sati, untouchables, caste discrimination, slavery) have been present in
Indian history since writing began.
How would you know? Writing on clay tablets began in mesopotamia
before indus valley civilization as recorded.
Post by Me, ...again!
Maybe one day you will think about all of this and read some history with
an open mind. I spent the last ten years reading over 200 books, mostly on
history, economics, and economic history and there are no innocent people,
anywhere, and all issues that ever came up did not have simple and
uncomplicated details
no doubt about that.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Hypocrite? Yes
That's what you whites are doing.
Still a very very racist sentence. It is demagogery. It contributes
nothing constructive. At least you could have thanked all those white US
CEOs who took away millions of jobs from Americans and dumped them
jobs don't belong to anybody that they can be taken away from them.
Employment is an oppurtunity afforded by the investor to the worker to
provide a return on investment. A person who provides more value for
money than spent on him -is both exploited (from the worker's
perspective) as well as an asset to the employer. If a person does not
proviide an adequate return on investment -then by definition he is a
burden to the employer. If a person provides a return on invesyment
which is 1/4th that provided by a 3rd world worker -then it means that
his services are not competitively priced and he should opt for a
paycut to remain competitive.
Post by Me, ...again!
into India, like rain, that helped little dinky areas of India (eg
Bangalore, Mumbai, Heyderabad, etc.) become modern.
understand -wealth does not originate in the US, that it can be taken
away from americans or legislated by americans. United states is the
world's biggest debtor and there is no such thing as a rich debtor. If
you don't believe me -ask any loan shark or his victims. And FYI -
hyderbad hasn't changed much since investment started pouring in.

regards
-kamal
Me, ...again!
2009-11-30 13:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
so? does it mean that the people who gave birth to your parents or
their parents and stole the land from native americans and gave it to
you -actually owned the land?
How about in all the wars in India, carried out by Indians against Indian,
where the conquoring Indians stole the land from the conquored Indians,
going back 3,000 years, as is discussed in three history books I have on
India, where is your acknowledgement as to who owned the land that was
taken away from the conquored?

How about telling me, if sati means the living wife a dead Indian husband
must go up in flames, just estimate out of hundreds of millions of
Indians, how many were married, and how many sati deaths by incineration
took place?

Indian Thuggees (ritual murder) in India has been estimated to have killed
3 million Indians, at the hand of other Indians.

And, you can find child slave labor in India, TODAY. Along with
infanticide, and female infanticide.

Caste discrimination for 3,000 years.

And, you just want to talk about "whites" and something that happend
hundreds of years ago. You just want to point your finger someplace else
and refuse to look in the mirror at the bloody, brutal history of India as
if it does not count in the discussion"

Go ahead, you can talk about "whites" in your racist, biggoted mind, and I
will talk about how you are misrepresenting history and how you are being
a hypocrit.

Oh, yes, India would love to get ultimate control over the Kashmir region
(stealing the land), and for the record India has blood on its hands for
that, too.

Yes, I've even seen your demagoguery on anti-US, anti-white Indian
websites. I guess that is where you learned your bias and prejudice.

Go ahead, keep up your sellective anti-US, anti-white propaganda, and I'll
keep posting what is in the history books: all peoples in the past carried
out warfare, killing, and "stealing" land to increase sizes of empire.
Indians were as bad as anyone else.

///////////////////////////
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
80% of the people in the USA were born in the USA and so were their
parents.
so? did their ancestors fall from the heavens with an american
passport in hand? or did they come by boats the same way illegal
mexicans do?
Post by Me, ...again!
20% who are here came here (half of which are illegal), uninvited except
they are invited but not given legal status by employers, politicians,
their henchmen and of course law enforcement personnel. Nobody in his
senses would want to trade on his mexican cost of living with an
american one -if there weren't a job waiting for him once he gate-
crashes into the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
by exploitative corporations, after being born someplace else where their
home country can't make enough jobs for their own people.
your ancestors wouldn't have ended up here if it weren't for their
desire to search for a living. For that matter, they wouldn't have
left africa but for drought and tried settling down in europe.
Post by Me, ...again!
  just few generations
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
before.
Back before around 1900 when immigrants were coming to sponge off the
society and drive down wages and restrictive immigration laws came on the
books
Immigration laws were created by politicians and not by divine decree.
In fact, most of the labour (be it legal or otherwise) that comes into
the US comes with the blessings of corporations and the politicians
they bribe. Tom tancredo's ancestors gate-crashed into the US the same
way the people he intends to prosecute do. God didin't give his
ancestors a special right to settle down in the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
How would you feel if some group of Indians who
immigrated to USA in 1960s and became citizens,
now press for complete stopping of immigration.
I have actually met Mexicans who came legally and persons of Mexican
descent (born in the USA of Mexican parents) who feel that immigration
should be cut back drastically.
yes-nobody wants competition and/or over-crowding. That is a
legitimate oncern. The problem comes when you want them in the US -but
under restricted rights because the opprutunities back home are so
few.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the US born people who were displaced by immigrants have a right to
benefits of ones own country of birth rather than have those rights taken
the benefit of birth is that you can close down immigration (legal or
otherwise). If you want people to work for you in return for letting
them settle down in the US -that is exploitation/slavery.
Post by Me, ...again!
away and handed to immigrants whose only choice is to work for cheap while
the bosses make more money by exploitation.
yes-the dispute about illegal immigration is mostly a dispute about
corporations keeping the benefits of slavery to themselves and not
passing them down to people lower down the value chain. If it was a
dispute about over-crowding, then you would be looking to proecute
employers (and not employees) and also to close down visa issuing
consulatres.
Post by Me, ...again!
So, your sentence, above, does not tell the whole story, just like your
hightly limited knowledge of world history ignores the fact that serious
wars were taking place in all areas of the world where humans lives and
not just due to "whites." Maybe it will sink into your thick skull
that other (non-white) peoples carried out warfare, too, on a large scale.
yes -they did, but whites were more successful at winning wars than
others. To the victor go the spoils and also the blame.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the other historical evils of human culture (murder, theft, rape,
sati, untouchables, caste discrimination, slavery) have been present in
Indian history since writing began.
How would you know? Writing on clay tablets began in mesopotamia
before indus valley civilization as recorded.
Post by Me, ...again!
Maybe one day you will think about all of this and read some history with
an open mind. I spent the last ten years reading over 200 books, mostly on
history, economics, and economic history and there are no innocent people,
anywhere, and all issues that ever came up did not have simple and
uncomplicated details
no doubt about that.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Hypocrite? Yes
That's what you whites are doing.
Still a very very racist sentence. It is demagogery. It contributes
nothing constructive. At least you could have thanked all those white US
CEOs who took away millions of jobs from Americans and dumped them
jobs don't belong to anybody that they can be taken away from them.
Employment is an oppurtunity afforded by the investor to the worker to
provide a return on investment. A person who provides more value for
money than spent on him -is both exploited (from the worker's
perspective) as well as an asset to the employer. If a person does not
proviide an adequate return on investment -then by definition he is a
burden to the employer. If a person provides a return on invesyment
which is 1/4th that provided by a 3rd world worker -then it means that
his services are not competitively priced and he should opt for a
paycut to remain competitive.
Post by Me, ...again!
into India, like rain, that helped little dinky areas of India (eg
Bangalore, Mumbai, Heyderabad, etc.) become modern.
understand -wealth does not originate in the US, that it can be taken
away from americans or legislated by americans. United states is the
world's biggest debtor and there is no such thing as a rich debtor. If
you don't believe me -ask any loan shark or his victims. And FYI -
hyderbad hasn't changed much since investment started pouring in.
regards
-kamal
s***@italiamafia.com
2009-11-30 16:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
so? does it mean that the people who gave birth to your parents or
their parents and stole the land from native americans and gave it to
you -actually owned the land?
How about in all the wars in India,
rest of nonsense deleted.

Why is it that everytime this uncomfortable question is
asked, you resolt to thugee, sati and other irrelevant
crap. Could it be that you have no answer for the
question.

Fact is, USA never belonged to whites. It was stolen
and that too not too long ago. So today, your own people,
giving a little of it to immigrants is by no means a crime,
specially when everything is legal. No uninvited party crashing
by boat, no mass killings.

OK let me put it this way. Do you think it is
possible TODAY for chinese to arrive in planes to USA without
any visa, and then proceed to kill all americans and take their
jobs. NO. WE ARE TOO SHOCKED BY THIS OUTLANDISH THOUGHT.
Me, ...again!
2009-11-30 18:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italiamafia.com
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
so? does it mean that the people who gave birth to your parents or
their parents and stole the land from native americans and gave it to
you -actually owned the land?
How about in all the wars in India,
rest of nonsense deleted.
Oh, you were uncomfortable facing the truth, eh? That's why you deleted
it!
Post by s***@italiamafia.com
Why is it that everytime this uncomfortable question is
asked, you resolt to thugee, sati and other irrelevant
crap. Could it be that you have no answer for the
question.
Why is it that racist, biggoted Indians like you only want to sellectively
talk about only uncomfortable history of "whites" and you DON'T want to
talk at all about at least ten times as much uncomfortable facts of
history among India's Indians? Or, you want to ignore other uncomfortable
facts of history among other non-white Asians in Asia?
Post by s***@italiamafia.com
Fact is, USA never belonged to whites. It was stolen
and that too not too long ago.
I have never heard any racist, biggoted Indian who stole jobs from
Americans express any sorrow or sympathy for the crime they participated
in, so why should I express any sorrow or sympathy for victims of any
crime that those Indians think I should feel guilty about, or crimes I
had no control over?

You guys are hypocrits.

So today, your own people,
Post by s***@italiamafia.com
giving a little of it to immigrants is by no means a crime,
Why can't those immigrants find jobs in their own countries instead of
expecting the USA to "bail them out" for the reasons that some rich CEO
uses to make more money for himself, and Indians, for example, can't find
jobs in their own country?
Post by s***@italiamafia.com
specially when everything is legal.
Did Indian kings/warriors over the last 3,000 years of India's bloody
history think what is legal?
Post by s***@italiamafia.com
No uninvited party crashing
How about 3/4 of Indians who pushed 1/4 of Indians, thousands of years
ago, into untouchable-Dalit class and out of any human right for any kind
of equality or future and forever by birthright? How many hundreds of
millions of Indians, over those thousands of years, were pushed into
"cockroach" status, only because their parents were "cockroaches" too?

You don't want to talk about that, either, do you?
Post by s***@italiamafia.com
by boat, no mass killings.
So, if we look at any 100 million Indians and estimate 30 million are
married, so it means 15 million are females who go up in flames (sati)
when their husbands die, why is it that that is OK with you and you don't
want to talk about how your society endorsed this and enforced it for how
many years? Multiply the 100 million by sum total of Indians ever born
and lived to see sati?

Much more mass killing than "whites" ever did. All legal, too, right?

And, YOU want ME to entertain YOUR biggoted racist thesis about "whites"?
Post by s***@italiamafia.com
OK let me put it this way. Do you think it is
possible TODAY for chinese to arrive in planes to USA without
any visa, and then proceed to kill all americans and take their
jobs.
OK, how about the trip to India from China will be much shorter and does
not need planes. Just walk across the border. In India's war with China in
1962, Indians got their asses kicked. Hard.
Post by s***@italiamafia.com
NO. WE ARE TOO SHOCKED BY THIS OUTLANDISH THOUGHT.
Whereas, in India, the Indians all just created wars of 3,000 years, caste
discrimination, sati, untouchables, child slave labor (which stil exists
TODAY), infanticide, and female infanticide.....

And, these same racist, biggoted Indian guys want to lecture Americans and
"whites" as if all the world's problems came from only "whites."

Sorry, you guys need to look in the mirror, first. Then, second, read some
real history of Asia, including Mongol Empire, Chinese dynasties going
back thousands of years, Japan and Japan's Imperial period of brutal
attacks on China, Korea, Taiwan, etc., and all the other wars carried out
by non-white peoples (including Inca Empire, Aztec/Mayan/Toltec/etc
empires and their wars even before Columbus came).

You're so blind to ballanced historical fact that you really look
pathetic.

I can actually tell you that I've known Indians from India who were
embarassed about where they came from. And, I had to tell them not to be
sorry about things they could not control.
Me, ...again!
2009-11-30 21:36:43 UTC
Permalink
India Indians smarter than Internet Indians

Our Internet Indians (eg. "sopranos" and "indian" and Kamal and others)
have been, for years now, on a racist, biggoted anti-white, anti-US,
anti-American witchhunt jihad. Just go back and read their posts in the
archives.

I am happy to report that there are some smart, perceptive, wise,
knowledgeable Indians such as Manmohan Singh (etc) who have their heads
focused in the right direction. "Financial Times" (Nov 28/29, 2009,
weekend edition, page 2) has the article "India signals 'serious concern'
over Chinese military ties with Pakistan", all about China selling 250
JF-17 fighters to Pakistan (what does Pakistan need these for?) and China
geting $5 billion payment for them.

And, Singh giving a talk to the US Council on Foreign Relations about
this.
i***@india.com
2009-11-30 23:20:07 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@osmium.mv.net>, Me, ...again!
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
India Indians smarter than Internet Indians
Our Internet Indians (eg. "sopranos" and "indian" and Kamal and others)
have been, for years now, on a racist, biggoted anti-white, anti-US,
anti-American witchhunt jihad. Just go back and read their posts in the
archives.
I am happy to report that there are some smart, perceptive, wise,
knowledgeable Indians such as Manmohan Singh (etc) who have their heads
focused in the right direction. "Financial Times" (Nov 28/29, 2009,
weekend edition, page 2) has the article "India signals 'serious concern'
over Chinese military ties with Pakistan", all about China selling 250
JF-17 fighters to Pakistan (what does Pakistan need these for?) and China
geting $5 billion payment for them.
And, Singh giving a talk to the US Council on Foreign Relations about
this.
For once I agree with you. While we are at it, I feel that real
Americans are lot smarter than net Americans. Real Americans know
the power of outsourcing while net Americans know only bitching.
That's why outsourcing is growing.

best.
Lookout
2009-11-30 23:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
India Indians smarter than Internet Indians
Our Internet Indians (eg. "sopranos" and "indian" and Kamal and others)
have been, for years now, on a racist, biggoted anti-white, anti-US,
anti-American witchhunt jihad. Just go back and read their posts in the
archives.
Not unlike many ignorant redneck white trash in here
Me, ...again!
2009-12-01 00:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lookout
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
India Indians smarter than Internet Indians
Our Internet Indians (eg. "sopranos" and "indian" and Kamal and others)
have been, for years now, on a racist, biggoted anti-white, anti-US,
anti-American witchhunt jihad. Just go back and read their posts in the
archives.
Not unlike many ignorant redneck white trash in here
;-)
Conan the Barabarian
2009-12-01 00:29:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
India Indians smarter than Internet Indians
Our Internet Indians (eg. "sopranos" and "indian" and Kamal and others)
have been, for years now, on a racist, biggoted anti-white, anti-US,
anti-American witchhunt jihad. Just go back and read their posts in the
archives.
I am happy to report that there are some smart, perceptive, wise,
knowledgeable Indians such as Manmohan Singh (etc) who have their heads
focused in the right direction. "Financial Times" (Nov 28/29, 2009,
weekend edition, page 2) has the article "India signals 'serious concern'
over Chinese military ties with Pakistan", all about China selling 250
JF-17 fighters to Pakistan (what does Pakistan need these for?) and China
geting $5 billion payment for them.
And, Singh giving a talk to the US Council on Foreign Relations about
this.
For once I agree with you. While we are at it, I feel that real
Americans are lot smarter than net Americans. Real Americans know
the power of outsourcing while net Americans know only bitching.
That's why outsourcing is growing.
best.
Maybe we should encourage Pakistan to test thier nukes on you.
--
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the
lamentation of their women.
Me, ...again!
2009-12-01 02:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
India Indians smarter than Internet Indians
Our Internet Indians (eg. "sopranos" and "indian" and Kamal and others)
have been, for years now, on a racist, biggoted anti-white, anti-US,
anti-American witchhunt jihad. Just go back and read their posts in the
archives.
I am happy to report that there are some smart, perceptive, wise,
knowledgeable Indians such as Manmohan Singh (etc) who have their heads
focused in the right direction. "Financial Times" (Nov 28/29, 2009,
weekend edition, page 2) has the article "India signals 'serious concern'
over Chinese military ties with Pakistan", all about China selling 250
JF-17 fighters to Pakistan (what does Pakistan need these for?) and China
geting $5 billion payment for them.
And, Singh giving a talk to the US Council on Foreign Relations about
this.
For once I agree with you. While we are at it, I feel that real
Americans are lot smarter than net Americans.
What you are basically saying is still a prejudicial judgement that net
Americans do not have a right to express themselves, freely, and in
accordance with their constitutional rights.

You are, also, again, singling out specifically Americans for a derogatory
remark and without understanding that the same thing can be said about
Internet Indians and what I did was to show that Indian negative opinions
specifically about only Americans/whites/Europeans could not be backed up
by historical fact which, as far back as written history shows, ALL
peoples carried out warfare, killing, slavery, and stealing land during
the formation of various empires and establishing imperialism, and that
includes peoples of the so-called yellow race (Mongols, Chinese, and
Japanese), as well as the 3,000 years (or more) of Indian history.

Real Americans know
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
the power of outsourcing
Yeah, a free ride for cheap labor countries, and economic/career
devastation for Americans or anyone in first world countries (including
Japan and Europe where jobs leave for cheap labor countries.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
while net Americans know only bitching.
As if YOUR bitching about "whites", Americans, and the USA is not
bitching?
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
That's why outsourcing is growing.
Oh, lets review this file again:

Reference List: India No Longer Offshore IT King
(34 references to recent articles)

Offshore outsourcing (including BPO to India) is
declining as a fraction of total world-wide IT service
to developed countries and has a high failure rate,
not necessarily high quality service, is leading to
a new phenomenon: backsourcing/backshoring.
Somethings called the "H-1B swindle" is discussed
below. And there are some reports that outsourcing
is declining or reversing.

----
34. WSJ, Oct 5, 2009, page B1:

title:"Indian Tech Outsourcers Aim to Widen Contracts"

contains the following sentences:

"But the days of 30% annual revenue growth from such work are over, a
casualty of the global economic downturn and increasing competition in the
services industry world-wide."

"Annual revenue growth in Indian technology services slowed to 16 % in
fiscal year ended in March. The industry's trade group, Nasscom, estimates
growth will be only 4% to 7% this fiscal year."

page B7 (continuation):

"Adding to the pressure on Indian firms is increased competition from
outsourcers based in the U.S. that have expanded their presences in
India, and the rise of competitors in even cheaper offshoring locales
such as the Philippines and Vietnam."

"But Indian companies are still having a hard time shaking their
reputation as the vendors of choice for low-cost, commodity services. And
on bigger, infrastructure heavy deals, they can no longer beat rivals on
price."

- - - - - - - - - - -
33. From Business Week, October 5, 2009, title "The Peril and Promise of
Investing in Russia," starting on page 49, about 1/3 way into article is
this paragraph on page 50:

"Consider IT giant Intel, which moved into Russia in 1999 and since then
has invested $800 million. It now employs more than 1,000 engineers at
four research centers, including its largest software [R&D] group outside
of the U.S. Because of Russia's top-notch math skills, Intel assigns local
engineers more complex work than it gives specialits in other outsourcing
venues such as India, says Dimitry Konash, the company's Moscow-based
regional director."

And the picture caption on page 52 says "Russian worker's math skills give
them an edge over Indian engineers, says Intel's Konash"

- - - - - - -
32. Business Week, May 4, 2009 issue, page 59: title: "The Sudden Chill
at an Indian Hot Spot." Picture caption says:"A commercial real estate
boom has turned into a glut, with vacancy rates of 28%" "In the second half
of 2008, as American and European clients hit the skids, India's outsourcing
industry saw contracts shrivel by 22%, its worst performance in a decade,
according to research firm Technology Partners International." "Nobody in
India collects layoff data, but every day papers carry dire news...." as
many named Indian companies announce layoffs.

Sidebar at the bottom of page 60:

"Outsourcing to India may soon be old news. KPMG has identified 31 new hot
spots, from Buenos Aires to Zagreb, and from Indianapolis [in the USA] to
Iloilo City (a Philippines town known for its animation services).

It gives the URL for that KPMG report as:
http://bx.businessweek.com/global-outsourcing/reference
- - - - - - -

31. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aB5yoCVxbXe4
Delta Air Returns Customer Call-Center Work to U.S. From India

April 18 (Bloomberg) -- Delta Air Lines Inc., the world~Rs largest
carrier, said it stopped routing customer service calls to India and
brought them back in house in the U.S. because customers were unhappy.
Delta started shifting the calls to employees in the U.S. over the
past year, and completely removed Indian contractors last quarter,
Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson said in his weekly recorded
message to employees.
The move makes Delta the second big carrier to repatriate customer-
service work from India in 2009, after UAL Corp. United Airlines
did so in February. Companies including AT&T Inc. have taken similar
steps, said Karl Keirstead, an outsourcing analyst at Kaufman Bros.
LP in New York.
- - - - - -
30. Subject: More Jobs coming back to the USA from India
WSJ, April 7, 2009, Tuesday, page B5:
title: "Sallie Mae To Shift Jobs to the U.S."
Quote: "AP. New York--Sallie Mae gave some hope to the unemployed Monday,
announcing it will bring 2,000 jobs to the U.S. within the next 18 months as
it shifts call-center and other operations from overseas."
And, same story in Washington Post, April 7, 2009, page A18:
title: "SLM to Transfer Overseas Jobs to U.S."
subtitle: "Reston Student Lender to Move 2,000 Workers Out of Asia"
- - - - - -
29.(BusinessWeek/SmallBiz, Feb/Mar 2008) title:
"Outsourcing HEADING SOUTH" by Amy Barrett, "Jon
Morris...shifted his outsourced design and Web
development staff from India to Costa Rica in 2005"
and he made reference to not having to deal with
the time zone difference with India. "Forget
'Chindia,' A growing number of entrepreneurs are
finding Latin America a great place to sell,
source, and outsource.." Article says US companies
exported 30% more goods to Latin America, up 30%
from five years earlier. Direct investment to LA up
12% in 2006 over 2005. LA has less daunting
language and cultural problems. Countries featured:
Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, Chile, and
Argentina.(businessweek.com/smallbiz).

CFO magazine (www.cfo.com/backissues?), February,
2008, p. 24: "view from asia" in an interview with
Deepak Natraj, Infosys's head of strategic
initiatives: "Everyone assumes that we're going to
slash and burn and send two-thirds of the people
home," (and the bring over Indians on L visas) "But
when you send home the workforce, what are you
paying for?" Natraj "...prefers leaving the local
CEO--as well as the human-resources director --in
place."

- - - - - - -
28. Subject: "India's Competition in the Caribbean"
from Business Week,
Dec 24, 2007 issue, page 072, edited by Jena
McGregor:

"The region [the Carribean], along with Latin
America, is fast becoming a customer-service
hot spot. GE Money is...using call centers in Barbados
and Puerto Rico. Delta Air Lines is sending calls
to Jamaica." "...Philip Peters, CEO of Zagada Markets,
....[says]..the ranks of Caribbean call-center agents have
swelled from 11,000 in 2002 to 55,000 in 2007.
Hispanics are boosting demand for bilingual agents,
driving companies to Central and South America, too.
Dell and [HP]...have set up in countries
such as Panama and Argentina.'Latin America is the
fastest-growing region that we have,' says Mark
Notaraninni, HP's call-center director."

- - - - - -
27. Subject: Dell shuts down hardware R&D unit in
India and moves back to USA

"BENGALURU, India -- Dell Inc. is about to shut
down its hardware R&D unit based in this city, and
will move the work being done here to its centers in
Texas and Taiwan. Anywhere between two dozen to 170
staff will lose their jobs as a result; they have been given
45 days to find new employment."

"A Dell executive blamed rising costs in the city
for shifting the R&D unit out of the country, but
current and previous staffers have pointed
out that employing similar engineers in Austin,
Texas, or Taiwan would likely be more expensive,
not less."

"This is the second time the company has shifted
work out of India. Citing customer complaints about
quality about four years ago, Dell moved part of
its high-end technical support out of India."

http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtm
l?articleID=204701812
(originally posted on a.c.c Dec 6, 2007)
- - - - - - - - -

26. From WSJ, Aug 21, 2007, page A6 (see title
above): Quote of first paragraph: "CAIRO, Egypt--
As rising wages and attrition rates in India
spur some international companies to seek new
locales for outsourcing operations, Southeast Asian,
Eastern Europe, and Latin America have all
been competing to become new offshoring hubs." The
article says Satyam CS hired 300 in Cairo; Wipro
set up in Saudi Arabia and plans to enter Egypt,
Tata says it will go into Morocco. Says in recent
years Egypt, Jordan and the UAE have all broken
into the top 20 for offshoring destinations.
Quotes A.T. Kerney as saying the Middle East is the
next big destination. Paris-based Teleperformance
hired 3,500 in Tunisia, and going into Cairo.
EDS is putting $100 million into Abu Dhabi (UAE
emirate), and already hired 450 in Egypt and planning
to hire more. The sidebar clearly implies that India is no
longer the offshore destination any more. On the list in
the sidebar for offshoring destinations are China,
Malaysia, Thailand, Brazil, Indonesia, Chile, Phillipines,
Bulgaria, Mexico, Singapore, Slovakia, Egypt, Jordan,
and Estonia.

--------
25, From Business Week, August 6, 2007, page 66m
("Rise of the Rupee") and The Economist, July 28, 2007,
pages 65-66 ("Outsourcing-External Affairs").

From BW: Quotes: '"We are losing our competitiveness to
China, Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore...and the Reserve
Bank [of India] is allowing the rupee to appreciate?" growls
New Delhi economist Surjit Bhalla." And, "Profitability across
the sector [Indian IT] fell by 8% in the most recent quarter."
And, "A further rise in the rupee, says Suresh Ramrakhiani,
economist at the Cotton Textile Export Promotion Council
in Mumbai, could lead to job losses for up to 200,000 people."

From The Economist: "...jobs no longer flow only from richer
countries to poorer ones." And, "The latest outsourcing from
TPI, a consultancy, was published earlier this month. It
showed that both the number and value of contracts awarded
during the first half of this year had declined in comparison with
the same period in 2006 [lowest since 2001]." Article also
says Wipro is going to set up its first software-development
center in America (either Atlanta, Austin, Raleigh, or
Richmond) and "Azim Premji, Wipro's chairman, says that the
proportion of local employees (as opposed to visiting Indians)
in the company's overseas locations will rise from
10% to one-third over the next three years." Jobs
coming back to the USA.

- - - -

24. title: "Infosys Shaves Forecast After Strong
Quarter" by Jackie Range (WSJ, July 12, 2007, page C8)

"...citing the stronger currency, Bangalore-based
Infosys cut its full-year, rupee-based earnings outlook..."
and "In the past three months, the rupee has appreciated
some 7% against the dollar. That has particularly hurt
companies like Infosys, which earn most of their revenue
in dollars." The graphic, made from data provided
by the company, shows projected 1Q, '08 net profits
as being below 4Q, '07 net profits by about 7 %. Looks
like India's "rising" and "shining" may be coming to an end as
more foreign companies don't consider India as an
outsourcing destination any more (see below).

------------
23. from: The Wall Street Journal, Tuesday, July 3,
2007, front page

title: "Some in Silicon Valley Begin to Sour on
India" subtitle: "A Few Bring Jobs Back As Pay of Top
Engineers In Bangalore Skyrockets" by Pui-Wing Tam
and Jackie Range

Interviews and research with quotes as follows:

Munjal Shah [with image of him, and born in India]
led a California start-up [Riya] opened an office in
Bangalore in 2005, hired about 20 skilled software
developers at 1/4 what they cost in Silcon Valley. Then
salaries soared. He said this year it cost 75% of
SV salaries, plus extra expenses of running an office
in India, and in April this year he closed the Bangalore
office.

"Across SV, some technology companies, particularly
start up and midsize ones, are beginning to turn away
from India for low-cost labor to do sophisitcated tech
work. Kana ... eliminated 100 software-developemnt jobs
in India in late 2005 and expanded its U.S. hiring
instead. Teneros, Inc., shut down a 30 member
India office and brought 12 of the people to its
headquarters in ...California."

The article mentioned that Apple cancelled plans to
open a facility in India.

"'The wage inflation rate for engineers in India is
four times what it is here' in America, says Intel's
chief executive, Paul Otellini."

Article says Indian wage inflation is 10-15% per
year, other sources say it is closer to 50%.

"India is no longer the premier outsourcing
destination."

Article says even the simple call-center work may
be done more cheaply in the Philippines and Vietnam,
and mentions that Indian companies are even
looking outside India to create jobs. TCS recently
opened a center in Mexico and is considering a move
to Morocco. Wipro has two centers in China and
planning one for the Philippines.

Pervasive Software (from Texas) opened a Bangalore
unit in 2004 with 45 people, but turnover reached more
than 25% per year. Last year it closed the
Bangalore office.

The article mentioned that it takes more supervisors to
manage Indians. So, they are asking why pay a junior
guy in India just a little less when they can get a senior
guy right in California.
---------------

22. Quotes from A Wall Street Journal article, Feb
26, 2007, page B3: title: "Behind Outsourcing: Promise
and Pitfalls" by Scott Thurm

"Companies such as Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.
and Dell Inc. reversed decisions to move customer call
centers to India after a customer rebellion." and "[Jagdish]
Dalal advised a big insurance company with
little outsourcing experience to locate a call
center in Canada, to minimize problems with non-North
American English accents." This article also gave many
other details on problems with outsourcing that had nothing
to do with India or offshoring.

----
21. I have seen many reports (sorry I have no
specifics) of Indian (and other foreign corporations) opening
up branches in the USA and establishing jobs within the
USA. An important caveat regarding this action is that while
these are new jobs in the USA, foreign companies are
allowed to transfer existing employees from their
home country into these jobs on L-1 visas and there is no
cap on the number. I hardly think that many of these jobs
will be offered to US guys (green card or citizens)
when home country guys can probably be transferred
at lower pay. Furthermore, the reports may be overly
glossy if a foreign company just buys an existing company
and then claims that it is "bringing" jobs to the
USA. When, however, a US MNC lays off 20,000 US
guys and moves those jobs to India, that MNC is going
to hire local Indians into those jobs and NOT
invite the US guys to "transfer" to India with
something like a 2/3 pay cut.

-------

20. Wall Street Journal, Feb 21, 2007, page B6:
Under "Plots and Ploys" section entitled "Call it
insourcing": Quotes: "One real-estate company has
decreased its outsourcing of some services to india
and turned to a North Carolina town that has lost jobs
to overseas competitors. Situs Cos., a Houston-based
company that provides services to the commercial-
mortgage industry, says it will send some work
to Robbins, N.C. the company previously had tried
to outsource certain services to india, but looked
elsewhere as well in part because of soaring
rents in India, says Situs Chief Executive Ralph
Howard. 'We think we are getting a better quality
for the same price, and at the same time, we're
creating U.S. jobs,' says Mr. Bean [who works for
Mr. Howard]."

---------
19. WSJ, front page, November 13, 2006. title
"Clothes Made Abroad Create Factory Jobs in
L.A. for Mr. Fix-It" subtitle: "Barry Foreman Left Rag
Trade, But is Back, Salvaging Flawed Chinese
Garments" by Stephanie Kang. This whole article
is about a fairly large fraction of imported clothing
that comes with a variety of defects and the
featured guy, Barry Forman, got back into business
to "correct" the defects in the imported lots so as to
make them saleable again. His business is booming,
expanding, and the article is worth reading for those
who want the details. Not all of that cheap labor is
worth what people pay for it. You get cheap quality,
too.

------------
18. Financial Times, Nov 2, page 18, 2006
title: "Volkswagen chooses to swim against the
current-The German carmaker is to shift some of
its production back home" by Richard Milne

"To move production away from lower-cost countries
to a high-cost nation may appear to be a peculiar
decision, but not at Volkswagen. The carmaker
intends to cut thousands of jobs at Spanish,
Portugese and Belgian factories and to shift some
of the models back to Germany..."In the course of this
change, workers in Germany will work longer hours
for the same pay (and keep their high-paying jobs
which will end up at about E40.65/hour [or around
US$50/hour]).
------------
17. From Financial Times, Oct 12, 2006, page 15,
entitled "Boom in outsourcing abates as groups seek
shorter deals" by Francesco Guerrera.

"The wave of outsourcing that has engulfed the
global economy over the past five years is showing
signs of abating as multinational companies opt for
shorter and smaller deals, according to a study to
be published today. The outsourcing industry has
just experienced its worst quarter in four years
and is unlikely to match the $81.9bn in contracts
won in 2005 by the end of
this year, data from the consulting firm Technology
Partners International shows. A slowdown in 2006
would mark the second consecutive year fall in the
volume of outsourcing contracts since their $84.7bn
peak reached in 2004. The results suggest that, following
the drive to curb costs and streamline operations by
contracting out non-core functions, multinationals
might be running out of major operations to outsource.
...The average contract is down to four years from
about 10 years in the recent past. 'In some sectors,
especially information technology, companies
perceive that there has been a commoditisation of
services, leading them to opt for shorter-term contracts
of lower overall value,' said Peter Allen, a partner at
TPI. 'We just don't see enough big deals in the pipeline
to cause us to believe the levels of last year will be
reached.' The trend is likely to raise concerns in
countries such as India and China and among groups
like IBM, Accenture and [EDS], which have been
among the biggest beneficiaries of the outsourcing
trend... According to TPI, which tracks worldwide
deals worth more than $50m, outsourcing contracts
signed between July and September totalled
$13.4bn, a fall of more than 20 per cent on both
the previous quarter and the same period last year.
The weakness of the past three months has left
the total for the year at $55.3 bn, more than #26
bn below the figure for the whole of 2005....
--------------------
16. From WSJ, Monday, July 3, 2006, page B1,
entitled "Siting a Call Center: Check Out the
Mall First" by John Lyons.

Quote(p B3): "After Lehman Brothers moved its
internal computer help desk to India in 2003, the
mismatch between the investment bank's hard-charging
employees and their new Indian phone-support agents
created problems, say industry insiders, and the help
desk returned in house."

It is also interesting that most of this article is
about an Indian, Mr. Shankardass, a US citizen
("born to Indian parents in Nairobi, Kenya") who
works for ClientLogic, that sets up call centers as
an outsourcing business
and most of the article is devoted to his work
finding call center sites in Mexico.

--------------------
15. From Business Week/Small Biz, Summer, 2006 (may
be on the website:www.businessweek.com/smallbiz)
entitled: "Here or There" subtitle: Six entrepreneurs
explain why they outsource or not. Here is a quote
from the first page of the article (page 67):

"Some 24% of small manufacturers said they had
purchased goods or services from vendors outside
the U.S. in the past three years, according to a 2004
study by the National Federation of Independent
Business. For the rest, the best place to manufacture
is right at home, at least for now. The easy
rapport with vendors, relatively short plane rides,
and the quality of American-made goods keep these
business owners and their customers perfectly
happy."

---------------------
14. Subject: More India BPO failure
(in Business Week, June 19, 2006 issue, page 48):

title: "India: Why Apple Walked Away"
subtitle: "Plans for an Indian tech support center
have been scrapped. A cautionary tale"
by Manjeet Kripalani and Peter Burrows.

Quotes:
"Just three months back, Apple ...[was talking
about] hiring 3,000 workers by 2007 [in Bangalore]...."

These plans are now cancelled and most of the 30
existing employees in Bangalore have been dismissed.
The factors mentioned as working against the
original plan include "Entry level pay at tech and
outsourcing companies climbed by as much as 13%
annually from 2000 to 2004, while salaries for
midlevel managers jumped 30% a year during the same
period...." Also cited as a problem was high turnover.
Thus the financial advantage of sending work
to India has just about vanished.
--------------
13. Quote from CFO magazine, June 2006, page 17
(may be on their website, cfo.com): "Passing on India?
Rising wages in India are eating into some of the cost
advantages of sending work to the popular
outsourcing destination. Wages have increased
roughly 11 percent in each of the last three years with
little sign of abating, says Michael Spellacy,
vice president at The Boston Consulting Group. In
major cities like Bombay and Bangalore, inflation
has climbed as high as 14 percent, with worker
attrition rates now averaging 25%. A full time
worker in outsourced financial services in India earns
between $22,000 and $27,000, Spellacy says."

Also, in The Economist, June 3rd, 2006ssue is a
special report on India "A Survey of Business in India"
with the title "Now for the hard part" and on
page 6 of the special report (center section of the
issue) is a large article ("If in doubt, farm it out") on the
difficulty India is having finding workers for this great
expansion in BPO service to the outside world.

---------------------
12. The article "The H-1B Swindle" by Ephraim
Schwartz, appearing in Infoworld, October 31, 2005,
page 12, has the subtitle "A new study suggests
that companies hire foreign workers for cheap
labor, not skill." The article goes on to say: "It
appears there is hard evidence to prove that employers
are using the H-1B visa program to hire cheap
labor; that is, to pay substantially lower wages than
the national average for programming jobs
(infoworld.com/3449)" The article goes into
additional detail and cites data sources such as BLS
(infoworld.com/3450) and DOL's H-1B website
(infoworld.com/3451). Across the board, foreigners
were being paid less. As a general fact, companies have
a financial incentive to preferentially recruit foreigners
because they know foreigners will accept a job offer at a
lower wage.

---------------------
11. A study show that outsourcing really does not
save as claimed.
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/article
s/2006/04/13/
outsourcing_saves_less_than_claimed/

(this reference was posted on a newsgroup in early
2006, and was not checked)

--------------
10. Three more recent articles. First: the article
"Don't Offload Big IT Problems On Outsourcers" by
Rob Preston (VP.Ed-in-cheif) as appeared in
Informationweek, April 10, 2006, page 88 (may be
online at informationweek.com). Second: the large article
"How Do You Spell Relief?
O-U-T-S-O-U-R-C-I-N-G" by Bruce Boardman, appearing
in Network Computing, April 1, 2006, pages 30-36, and
a third article in the same issue on pages 39-48.

So what do these three articles say? The first is
a one page qualitative review of several outsourcing failures
and cites "Outsourcing Backlash"
(presumably at informationweek.com/650/50iuout.htm
[I have not checked it]) and explained that any problems
people have at home become magnified when
they offshore/outsource (many references to India).

The second walks people through the "process" of
outsourcing/offshoring work, including a discussion of how
to do this, but also has a sidebar on page 36 which includes
a summary of a Deloitte Consulting survey of 25
organizations (worth $1 trillion in market cap, and
with 1 mil employees, and spent $50 bil on operations
outsourced) and the sidebar says things like: one in four
brought functions back in house after realizing they could
do the work better, cheaper themselves, 33% of
outsourcing relationships failed in one year while 50% didn't
last five years, and 57% paid extra for services they though
were included in the original contract.

The third article also helps the IT specialist by
evaluating four data center packages (from Savvis, EDS,
Globix, and Infosys). There were a number of tables with data.
Bottom line results: Infosys was the cheapest, EDS
about three times more expensive, others midway;
quality of results- Savvis and EDS got A-, Globix got B+,
and Infosys got a C. You get what you pay
for.
----------------
9. Courtesy of "indiabpoking" are the following
reported negatives, failures and shortcomings of BPO,
2006
Date: 10 Apr 2006 15:36:37 -0700
From: indiaBPOking <***@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants,
alt.politics.economics,
alt.politics.bush, sci.research.careers,
soc.culture.british
Subject: Outsourcing seen as source of innovation

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6059512.html

"An IDC and Capgemini survey of almost 300
executives attending IDC's Outsourcing Forum East last
week found that top reasons for deciding to use Business
Process Outsourcing in a corporate strategy include
reducing costs, driving innovation, and the ability
to focus on core competencies."

[but see below]

"Additional [negatives, failures, drawbacks] survey
highlights include:"

"* More than one third (38.2 percent) of participants felt
the biggest downside to outsourcing is not getting the expected
results, followed by public/customer backlash (23.5 percent), and
anxiety over loosing control (20.6 percent)."

[note that 38.2 percent is much lower than other
figures cited from other sources farther down]

"* The three most important legal issues concerning
BPO today according to those surveyed were: governance
procedures (33.8%), business continuity (27.7 percent) and
intellectual property rights (26.2 percent)."

--------------------------------
8. More complaints about India:

from the article "View from Asia-India won't fully
benefit from the amazing productivity of its companies
unless it builds a better infrastructure for business" by
Tom Leander (Editor-in-Chief, CFO Asia). Appearing
in "CFO" magazine for April 2006, page 27 (may be at their
website: www.cfo.com/backissues).

Some quotes:

"... GE's CFO, Keith Sherin, told CFO Asia late
last year that he finds India frustrating. 'You get
excited and nothing happens,' he says. Three
years ago, GE did about the same volume of business
in both India and China. Today, China is a $3 billion
market for GE, triple that of India. So, it's no surprise
when Sherin sums up GE's Asian strategy by saying
that 'China is number one, two, and three for us'."

"His primary complaint is the lack of government
support for infrastructure improvements. Turn off any
highway in India and you'll know what Sherin is
talking about."

"It may be unseemly to criticise a government that
has to take care of so many poor citizens for not
building better roads to facilitate commerce, but
India's CFOs point out that infrastructure is a
social-welfare issue. Sumant Sinha, CFO of leading
conglomerate Aditya Birla Group, says that he spends
more on capital expenditure every year than peer
companies in other nations might. How many of them,
after all, must build their own power stations?"

"But its wishful thinking [despite all the positives of
India] to conclude that India's remarkable productivity
will translate into a thriving internal market any time
soon. In the eyes of most U.S. finance chiefs,
China remains number one, two, and three."

---------------------------------------
7. Backshoring...the new buzzword

Feb 13, 2006 issue of Infoworld, pages 8 (Efraim
Schwartz's column) and page 4, (editor's);

Developer poaching and rapidly rising prices are
causing US based companies to start pulling jobs back
to the USA. Read about it in the periodical.
------------------------------------------------
6. Subject: Deloitte Report: outsource failure
rates

From June, 2005, CFO magazine, page 19.
(it may be on their website, www.cfo.com/BackIssues)

Deloitte Consulting was said (by the CFO article)
to have said "'In the real world, outsourcing frequently
fails to deliver its promise.' wrote researchers who
surveyed 25 companies with average revenues of $50 billion.
The study reveals that 70 percent of its respondents have
had significantly negative experiences and are outsourcing
business processes and IT with increasing caution."

"...there is growning evidence that large comapnies
are rethinking massive outsourcing contracts. Big name
defectors that have unwound at least part of
their arrangements include Conseco, Dell, Capital
One, and Lehman Brothers."

"A sure sign that outsourcing isn't working is the
amount of renegotiation surrounding the vendor
agreements, says Deloitte senior strategy principal
Ken Landis. 'There wasn't a single participant in
the study where contract went to term,' he says.
'All of them had renegotiated prior to the contract
expiration date'"

"Companies are souring on outsourcing, the survey
asserts, for the same reason it has been criticised
for years: failure to live up to cost-reduction
promises, risks to intellectual property, and confidentiality,
and lack of transparency."

The article states that, so far, 25% of the companies
have brought services back (now called backsourcing).
-------------------------------------------------
-----
5. From Information Week, page 8, in the Nov 21,
2005 issue.

Sidebar: "48% of all companies will spend more
money on BPO this year than in 2004"

"55% of current BPO service delivery is conductend
inside the USA"

"41% of companies are satisfied with their BPO
services"

So, that sounds like 100 - 41= 59% are
dissatisified with their BPO services. And, there's
going to be more BPO?

Says the source is IW, Managing Offshore, and Equa
Terra study of 200 BPO customers.
-------------------------------------------------
4. "Offshoring isn't such a sure thing"
by Lora Kolodny, Inc. magazine, September, 2005,
pages 22-24

Quotes:

"Companies are finding that sending IT work
overseas can be more trouble than it's worth,
according to a new survey from DiamondCluster
International, a Chicago-based management
consultancy. The number of executives surveyed
who said they were pleased with their outsourced
IT vendors fell by 17 pecentage points versus the
previous year, marking the first decline since 2002.
Moreover, early termination of relationships
between buyers and offshore service providers
spiked to 51%, which is double the rate of 2004."

In other words, half of all relationships are
terminated before their first contract period is up.

In view of this, a spokesman for the consulting
firm says that "...tech buyers will think twice about
sending critical services abroad--at least
for now."
--------------------------------------------------
3. From "CFO" magazine, FALL 2005, special issue,
pages 40-44. (may be on www.cfo.com/Backissues)

article: "Customer Disservice: Critics say the
promised savings from offshoring come at too steep
a price, while companies say very little at
all"

by Norm Alster

This article starts by saying that on a recent talk
show where people could call in with comments and
questions, it was discovered that virtually everyone in
the USA does not like foreign call center representatives.

"But the practice of outsourcing customer service
to offshore call centers is beginning to look like a
classical idea carried too far. Critics of the
practice point to a growing body of evidence that
suggests faulty economics and customer dissatisfaction
are forcing a rethink of what once seemed a no-brainer."
"'The economic benefits of outsourcing customer
service are grossly overstated' according to Niels
Kjellerup, a senior partner with Australian
consulting firm Resource International and editor
of a Website devoted to call centers
(www.callcenters.com.au). Customer resistance, along
with data-security concerns and the unexpectedly high
costs of managing offshore call centers, offset and dilute their
promised economic benefits, says Kjellerup."

"There is already evidence that these factors have
combined to slow the offshore migration. Several large
firms, including Dell, credit-card giant
Capital One, and insurer Conseco, have shifted at
least some customer-support operations back to the
United States."

Gartner's analyst, Robert Brown, says that the initial
large growth in offshoring is expected to be, in the
future, much smaller.

"Companies with monopolistic or overwhelmingly
dominant market positions are more apt to risk customer
alienation where near-term savings can be realized."

"Alexa Bona, a Gartner analyst based in London,
predicts that during the next three years, up to 60 percent
of companies outsourcing customer-facing service will
encounter customer defections and hidden costs that will
either cancel or outweigh any perceived savings in such
arrangements."

"He [Chris Selland, at Covington Associates in
Boston]says executives at firms that have employed offshore
call centers keep telling him that 'it's harder, it takes more
management attention, and you have to be meticulous
about the way you structure the agreement.' As a
result of all this unexpected overhead, the projected savings
from offshoring can swiftly evaporate."

The article says there is huge turnover at Indian
call centers; it can be up to 70% per year. And, with the big
expansion, there have been recruiting wars in India and
escalating pay scales.

"Martha Rogers, a consultant and author of several
books on customer relationships, contends that the
metrics generally used to measure call-center performance
are flawed."

"Many companies that outsource customer service, in
fact, don't like talking about it, and more than a dozen
turned down requests for interviews. 'Companies are
looking to do everything they can to hide the
fact that they are using off shore call centers'
says Selland. 'From a political standpoint and a
customer-acceptance standpoint, it is something
they are trying to downplay.' At some Asian
centers, agents are actually trained to conceal their
real names and adopt phoney American monikers, a
practice that fools few and can further inflame an
already angry caller."

"One in three respondents in a British survey said
they would stop doing business with a bank that
relocates its call centers offshore. Another
study, conducted in 2004, reported that just 5
pecent of the British are satisfied with offshore
call centers. The Irish arm of Sweden's Tele2AG, a
telecommunications firm, recently switched its call
center operation out of India and back to Ireland,
citing consumer preference."

"In an unpublished data-theft case now under
investigation, a large U.S.-based technology
multinational contracted with a call center in India
without knowing that the company in turn subcontracted
a portion of the work to firms outside India, where
employees of the subcontractor apparently managed
to penetrate the American company's information
database."

"...growing outsourcing industries in Eastern
Europe and Latin America have been targeted by
criminals seeking access to customer data. "

"'For companies that regard customer service as a
key part of future revenue growth, bringing such operations
back to domestic shores is the way to go,' says Kjellerup."
---------------------------------------------------
2. From _Information Week_, page 60, Dec 19/26
issue, 2005

A short article by Paul McDougall reporting that:
"...companies operating in India, including local ones such as
Infosys Technologies, Tata Consultancy Services, and Wipro
Technologies, spend a lot of time and energy time stealing each
other's employees--and that's quickly driving up salaries" and
"'There's a lot of employee turnover [in India], and we weren't
interested in that,' says Martin Mellon, director of development at
applications vendor ASG Software Solutions. The company
chose Northern Ireland over India for its offshore development
work."
--------------------------------------------------
1. Subject: "Satisfaction Wanes for Offshoring"

On page 2 of the print issue of Processor.com for
June 17, 2005, volume 27, number 24:

"According to consulting firm DiamondCluster
International, the number of buyers satisfied with the
providers of their offshore outsourcing has fallen
from 79% to 62%. The firm's annual survey of IT
outsourcing also revealed that 51% of buyers are
terminating their outsourcing relationships earlier
than scheduled."
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
best.
Lookout
2009-12-01 04:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
India Indians smarter than Internet Indians
Our Internet Indians (eg. "sopranos" and "indian" and Kamal and others)
have been, for years now, on a racist, biggoted anti-white, anti-US,
anti-American witchhunt jihad. Just go back and read their posts in the
archives.
I am happy to report that there are some smart, perceptive, wise,
knowledgeable Indians such as Manmohan Singh (etc) who have their heads
focused in the right direction. "Financial Times" (Nov 28/29, 2009,
weekend edition, page 2) has the article "India signals 'serious concern'
over Chinese military ties with Pakistan", all about China selling 250
JF-17 fighters to Pakistan (what does Pakistan need these for?) and China
geting $5 billion payment for them.
And, Singh giving a talk to the US Council on Foreign Relations about
this.
For once I agree with you. While we are at it, I feel that real
Americans are lot smarter than net Americans.
What you are basically saying is still a prejudicial judgement that net
Americans do not have a right to express themselves, freely, and in
accordance with their constitutional rights.
Nope. That's not what he said at all you idiot.
Post by Me, ...again!
You are, also, again, singling out specifically Americans for a derogatory
remark and without understanding that the same thing can be said about
Internet Indians and what I did was to show that Indian negative opinions
specifically about only Americans/whites/Europeans could not be backed up
by historical fact which, as far back as written history shows, ALL
peoples carried out warfare, killing, slavery, and stealing land during
the formation of various empires and establishing imperialism, and that
includes peoples of the so-called yellow race (Mongols, Chinese, and
Japanese), as well as the 3,000 years (or more) of Indian history.
So you're saying "HE DID IT FIRST".
Pretty immature, don't you think?
Me, ...again!
2009-12-01 13:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lookout
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
India Indians smarter than Internet Indians
Our Internet Indians (eg. "sopranos" and "indian" and Kamal and others)
have been, for years now, on a racist, biggoted anti-white, anti-US,
anti-American witchhunt jihad. Just go back and read their posts in the
archives.
I am happy to report that there are some smart, perceptive, wise,
knowledgeable Indians such as Manmohan Singh (etc) who have their heads
focused in the right direction. "Financial Times" (Nov 28/29, 2009,
weekend edition, page 2) has the article "India signals 'serious concern'
over Chinese military ties with Pakistan", all about China selling 250
JF-17 fighters to Pakistan (what does Pakistan need these for?) and China
geting $5 billion payment for them.
And, Singh giving a talk to the US Council on Foreign Relations about
this.
For once I agree with you. While we are at it, I feel that real
Americans are lot smarter than net Americans.
What you are basically saying is still a prejudicial judgement that net
Americans do not have a right to express themselves, freely, and in
accordance with their constitutional rights.
Nope. That's not what he said at all you idiot.
"Idiot" is still a pre-mature conjecture which was used in an
unconstructive and prejudicial way. What you are ignoring is the context
of the comment he made and his notion that his "feeling" is somehow connected
with truth.

Conversely, what he said was that "net Americans" are dumber than "real
Americans" (whatever that definition might entail),
Post by Lookout
Post by Me, ...again!
You are, also, again, singling out specifically Americans for a derogatory
remark and without understanding that the same thing can be said about
Internet Indians and what I did was to show that Indian negative opinions
specifically about only Americans/whites/Europeans could not be backed up
by historical fact which, as far back as written history shows, ALL
peoples carried out warfare, killing, slavery, and stealing land during
the formation of various empires and establishing imperialism, and that
includes peoples of the so-called yellow race (Mongols, Chinese, and
Japanese), as well as the 3,000 years (or more) of Indian history.
So you're saying "HE DID IT FIRST".
Pretty immature, don't you think?
I guess you have not been reading the context of the thread. What he has
been saying, along with a lot of other Indians making anti-white, anti-US
snotty remarks, includes the "whites/Europeans stole the land from the
American Indians long ago, and also murdered all (or most) of them, and
therefore 'whites/Europeans/kids/descendents' are all bad" and these
Indians also like to throw in the additional criticism that Americans
brought slaves from Africa so that makes us additionally bad, too.

Of course what that argument leaves out (as I have been pointing out for
several years now), is that anyone looking at India's history going back
for 3,000 years is that in India there is a long list of things that were
equally if not worse than anything that was caused by "whites" or
Europeans or Americans and that these bad things were caused by
Indians and Indian culture (caste discrimination, 3,000 years of wars,
sati, untouchable degredations, etc).
Bama Brian
2009-12-01 17:47:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
so? does it mean that the people who gave birth to your parents or
their parents and stole the land from native americans and gave it to
you -actually owned the land?
Post by Me, ...again!
80% of the people in the USA were born in the USA and so were their
parents.
so? did their ancestors fall from the heavens with an american
passport in hand? or did they come by boats the same way illegal
mexicans do?
Post by Me, ...again!
20% who are here came here (half of which are illegal), uninvited except
they are invited but not given legal status by employers, politicians,
their henchmen and of course law enforcement personnel. Nobody in his
senses would want to trade on his mexican cost of living with an
american one -if there weren't a job waiting for him once he gate-
crashes into the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
by exploitative corporations, after being born someplace else where their
home country can't make enough jobs for their own people.
your ancestors wouldn't have ended up here if it weren't for their
desire to search for a living. For that matter, they wouldn't have
left africa but for drought and tried settling down in europe.
Post by Me, ...again!
just few generations
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
before.
Back before around 1900 when immigrants were coming to sponge off the
society and drive down wages and restrictive immigration laws came on the
books
Immigration laws were created by politicians and not by divine decree.
In fact, most of the labour (be it legal or otherwise) that comes into
the US comes with the blessings of corporations and the politicians
they bribe. Tom tancredo's ancestors gate-crashed into the US the same
way the people he intends to prosecute do. God didin't give his
ancestors a special right to settle down in the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
How would you feel if some group of Indians who
immigrated to USA in 1960s and became citizens,
now press for complete stopping of immigration.
I have actually met Mexicans who came legally and persons of Mexican
descent (born in the USA of Mexican parents) who feel that immigration
should be cut back drastically.
yes-nobody wants competition and/or over-crowding. That is a
legitimate oncern. The problem comes when you want them in the US -but
under restricted rights because the opprutunities back home are so
few.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the US born people who were displaced by immigrants have a right to
benefits of ones own country of birth rather than have those rights taken
the benefit of birth is that you can close down immigration (legal or
otherwise). If you want people to work for you in return for letting
them settle down in the US -that is exploitation/slavery.
Post by Me, ...again!
away and handed to immigrants whose only choice is to work for cheap while
the bosses make more money by exploitation.
yes-the dispute about illegal immigration is mostly a dispute about
corporations keeping the benefits of slavery to themselves and not
passing them down to people lower down the value chain. If it was a
dispute about over-crowding, then you would be looking to proecute
employers (and not employees) and also to close down visa issuing
consulatres.
According to you, corporations are employing the unemployable. And
thereby reaping the rewards of what, exactly? You do know that
employing illegal aliens is a crime in most states?

If you think this is not a reciprocal issue with other countries, then
try moving to another country illegally and applying for a job there.

Perhaps the US should tailor its policies towards immigrants as other
'civilized' countries do.
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
So, your sentence, above, does not tell the whole story, just like your
hightly limited knowledge of world history ignores the fact that serious
wars were taking place in all areas of the world where humans lives and
not just due to "whites." Maybe it will sink into your thick skull
that other (non-white) peoples carried out warfare, too, on a large scale.
yes -they did, but whites were more successful at winning wars than
others. To the victor go the spoils and also the blame.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the other historical evils of human culture (murder, theft, rape,
sati, untouchables, caste discrimination, slavery) have been present in
Indian history since writing began.
How would you know? Writing on clay tablets began in mesopotamia
before indus valley civilization as recorded.
Post by Me, ...again!
Maybe one day you will think about all of this and read some history with
an open mind. I spent the last ten years reading over 200 books, mostly on
history, economics, and economic history and there are no innocent people,
anywhere, and all issues that ever came up did not have simple and
uncomplicated details
no doubt about that.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Hypocrite? Yes
That's what you whites are doing.
Still a very very racist sentence. It is demagogery. It contributes
nothing constructive. At least you could have thanked all those white US
CEOs who took away millions of jobs from Americans and dumped them
jobs don't belong to anybody that they can be taken away from them.
Employment is an oppurtunity afforded by the investor to the worker to
provide a return on investment. A person who provides more value for
money than spent on him -is both exploited (from the worker's
perspective) as well as an asset to the employer. If a person does not
proviide an adequate return on investment -then by definition he is a
burden to the employer. If a person provides a return on invesyment
which is 1/4th that provided by a 3rd world worker -then it means that
his services are not competitively priced and he should opt for a
paycut to remain competitive.
Post by Me, ...again!
into India, like rain, that helped little dinky areas of India (eg
Bangalore, Mumbai, Heyderabad, etc.) become modern.
understand -wealth does not originate in the US, that it can be taken
away from americans or legislated by americans. United states is the
world's biggest debtor and there is no such thing as a rich debtor. If
you don't believe me -ask any loan shark or his victims. And FYI -
hyderbad hasn't changed much since investment started pouring in.
regards
-kamal
Kamal, despite your obvious concern for the recent illegal immigrants,
remember that there ARE legal means by which they could have entered the
country. That they did not do so is their problem, and causes a problem
for the ordinary citizen.

When the original settlers came here, they had to build a new country
from scratch. (I won't debate whether the existing Amerinds of the day
felt the settlers were legal or not, but they could have stopped the
immigration at that time. As we all know, all of us having 20/20
hindsight.) But my point is that the Amerinds did NOT have to pay the
new illegal immigrants' medical, education, or even give them unearned
money so they might purchase food and clothing, and so survive.

There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert. If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged. But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
Me, ...again!
2009-12-01 22:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bama Brian
According to you, corporations are employing the unemployable. And
thereby reaping the rewards of what, exactly? You do know that
employing illegal aliens is a crime in most states?
If you think this is not a reciprocal issue with other countries, then
try moving to another country illegally and applying for a job there.
Perhaps the US should tailor its policies towards immigrants as other
'civilized' countries do.
"sopranos" is an Indian, not to be confused by his domain name
"italianmafia" in his email address.
Why the topic changed to illegal immigrants.
Considering that a lot of Indians are in the USA illegally (by various
reasons you are so silent about, such as overextending visa stay,
fraudulent methods to obtain H1B visa), it is a relevant subset of "the
Indian problem"

Indians do not work
as janitors in" US companies.
Actually, I've seen a lot of Indians working in motels at all levels of
maintenance, a lot of Indians in a large radius around my house as
convenience store operators, liquor store operators, and doughnut shops
and I've seen a lot of them pushing the janitor broom, too. Or, shall we
say that the macho-lazy male, husband kicks his wife to push the broom.

That privilege is reserved for
Mexicans, pretty soon for white americans too.
Please notice the racist-biggoted reference to "white Americans" as the
target of ecomic misfortune wished upon by "sopranos"
Majority of immigrant Indians come to US either on student visa to study
for MS or PhD or on H1B visa, all of which is legal.
After which a big fraction just overstay their visas and thus carry out a
crime.

And, H1B visa abuse is also easy to find....

Subject: H1b abuse


On H1-B visa abuse:

From Business Week, October 27, 2008, page 65

title: How Companies Abuse Work Visas"
by Moira Herbst


Some quotes

"For years critics have charged that the U.S. visa program for highly
skilled workers is susceptible to abuse. Now the federal agency that issues
the visas has confirmed some of those concerns."


"...in a recent study, U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) found
that 13 % of the requests for H-1B visas were fraudulent and 7 % contained
technical violations."

"In one case, when a company requested a visa for a 'business development
analyst,' USCIS found the person would be working in a laundromat, doing
laundry and maintaining washing machines."

"They charge that companies use the visas so they can hire cheap workers
from abroad instead of hiring Americans, pushing down pay and benefits in
the US."

"Some H1-B workers didn't have the academic credentials or experience
detailed on the applications. Others never worked at the location specified
on their forms. Still other H-1B employees were paid less than the
prevailing wage for their position and geographic location, another
violation of the rules."
s***@italianmafia.com
2009-12-01 19:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bama Brian
According to you, corporations are employing the unemployable. And
thereby reaping the rewards of what, exactly? You do know that
employing illegal aliens is a crime in most states?
If you think this is not a reciprocal issue with other countries, then
try moving to another country illegally and applying for a job there.
Perhaps the US should tailor its policies towards immigrants as other
'civilized' countries do.
Why the topic changed to illegal immigrants. Indians do not work
as janitors in US companies. That privilege is reserved for
Mexicans, pretty soon for white americans too.

Majority of immigrant Indians come to US either on student visa to study
for MS or PhD or on H1B visa, all of which is legal.
Me, ...again!
2009-12-02 05:05:18 UTC
Permalink
This draft: Dec 1, 2009
New material (below the === line), Nov 26, 2009
First draft, Nov 24, 2009

Many Indians on alt.computer.consultants (and other NGs) have, over the
last few years, been posting a lot of anti-US, anti-white commentary. It
can easily be found in newsgroup archives.

They also imply that India's economic progress is all due to Indian
tallent instead of vast flows of US$ and US jobs due to CEO gifts,
US government free trade goodwill and giveaways (unreciprocated, as yet,
by India as yet), cheating by the Reserve Bank of India in the form of
currency continuously manipulated over the last 30 years to an undervalued
levels, and trade restricted by a non-convertible currency and
restrictions on external business entry into Indian markets.

Thes same anti-US, anti-white Indians concentrate on themes such as
European settlers who "killed all the 'American Indians' and stole their
land, and "whites" are nothing but murderers and land theifs. And, somewhere
in all of this is some hangover from British imperialism in India which ended
a little over 50 years ago.

All as if Indians, in India, had nothing but innocent and peaceful past
histories and only "whites" make trouble for Indians, American Indians
(now called Native Americans) and the rest of the world.

In the past, I've cited Basham's book on Indian history in which
continuous violence (murder, wars, crime, corruption, child slave
labor which exists today, 3,000 years of caste discrimination,
'sati' where the wives of deceased husbands goes up in flames,
infanticide, and Thuggees which carry out ritual murder) in India can be
traced back over 3,000 years, even before there was any significant wars or
even much organization in Europe. So these racist biggoted Indians are
also hypocrits.

However, the arrogant, ignorant, and racist-biggoted Indians (eg. Kamal
Prasad, Tambi Dude, "***@india.com", "indiaBPOking", "sopranos" and
others) are still at their game of bad-mouthing only the USA, Americans,
and "whites" in general or in specific. One questoin they like to focus on
is how many American Indians the "whites" from Europe killed when they
stole the lands of the American Indians as if no other peoples in the
world did these things in all of the other wars in history. These Indians
seem to have zero interest in truth about India's record of bloodshed and
violence that is ten times as long as "white" history in America. All of
world history shows warfare and violence in all lands and all peoples,
including in preliterate societies where archeologists can find evidence
of homicide. Considering Indian history, and that India's population
density (from excessive procreation?) was always high, all of India's
3,000 years (minimum) of violence is surely much higher than all of
"white"/European violence.

Ignorant, dishonest, racist and bigoted Indians reveal their own prejudices
by pointing their fingers only at "whites" as the only people who have
done bad things in the past.

Now, I will begin quotes from "The Cambridge Shorter History of India" by
J. Allen, Sir T. Wolseley Haig, H.H. Dodwell, and R.R. Sethi. The last
author is Head of Dept History, Punjab University College, New Delhi. The
book was even published in India (1964) by S. Chand & Co., and sold for Rs
18.00.

The first 100 pages deal with India's early history. This is before Muslim
invaders and, mostly, before Greek invaders, so Indians can't blame the
killing of their own kind by foreigners. They can only blame their own
kind.

Here is how it begins:

1500-1000 BC, quotes

page 5: "Aryas consisted of a number of tribes who were continually
waging war on the aborigines and frequently each other."

page 6: "Five tribes...Purus, Turvasas, Yadus, Anus and Druhyus.... These
appear with five other tribes in the battle of Ten Kings, the great event
in Vedic history...."[more Indian names listed].

"Sudas came of a military family, for his grandfather Divodasa was also a
mighty warrior and a great enemy of the Dasas, on whom he waged relentless
war."

page 9: "The Parikshitas were the first of the many dynasties recorded in
Indian history that attained great power and then suddenly collapsed.
...Jawa was a great conquorer...."

"Janaka....he was a great monarch--a Samraj or emperor. Of his wars and
conquests...." [but in a war with] Kasi, whose King, Ajatasatru, was
exceedingly jealous of Janaka's fame."

page 10: "In Prasenajit's old age he had a war with Ajatasatru of
Magadha."

"At one time Kasi, completely subdued Kosala in a war, in which the king
of the latter was slain and his queen carried off prisoner." [7th century
BC].

page 11: "Anga at one time was a much more important state than Magadha,
but it was conquored by Bimbasara...."

"Another passage in Buddhist literature records how Sunidha and Vassakar,
ministers of Magadha, built a new fortified town at Pataligama to repel
the Vajjis...."

page 25: The Early Mauryan

page 26:
"After disposing of the Greek [Alexander], Chandragupta was able to
conquor all of northern India...."

"Chandragupta had learned something of military matters from the
Macedonians, and his army was no longer a mere unweildy mass."

Additional narative saying that in a treaty with Antigonos, Chandragupta
must have been victorius in battle.

page 27:

"...Chandragupta....[and] his tyrannical rule he forfeited the name of
liberator which his campaigns against the the Macedonians earned him."

"After a reign of twenty-four years he was succeeded .[in 3rd century
BC]...by his son Bindusara..[known as] "the slayer of his foes'...."

page 28:

"The casual statement of Magasthenes, that a woman who kills a king when
he is drunk becomes the wife of his successor, suggests the dangers that
threateded the throne in India, and is probably a memory of the means by
which the Nanda had gained the throne of Magadha. The king was in contant
terror of his life and regularly changed his sleeping apartment lest
plotters should come upon him at night."

"...Chandragupta had considerable military forces: he is said to have had
at his disposal 600,000 infantry, 30,000 calvary and 9,000 elephants,...."

page 29:

"...and Muslim writers fiftenn hundred years later report equally huge and
unwieldy armies in the Hundu kingdoms of the south."

"The other four departments controlled the fighting men, who were divided
into the four traditional arms of India, infantry, cavalry, chariots and
elephants."

page 31:

In connection with the Kautiliya Arthasastra, apparetly a sort
of recognized _manual_ by which Indian kings must conduct themselves...

"According to some Indian writers there are only two [forms of state
policy], war and peace; but Kautilya distinguishes six by the addition of
degrees of neutrality or alliance, and discusses at length the question
whether the stronger or weaker enemy should be attacked first. The eigth
book investigates the vices of a king, and the calamities which may
threaten a kingdom."

page 32:

This page includes a large discription of all manner of subterfuge,
espionage, and trickery used by one Indian king against an enemy Indian
kingdom.

===== new material ======

page 33-34:
"In the ninth year after his [Asoka] corronation, however, he states that
he waged war on the Kalinga country, which adjoined his empire on the
south-east, cutting it off from access to the Indian Ocean." and "...the
victor, who records that 100,000 men were slain, 150,000 taken
prisoners..."

"It is evident then, from the testimony of the epigraphic records, that
Asoka ruled the whole of India except the extreme south, which was in the
hands of the Cholas and Pandyas."

page 42:

"About 185 BC the last Maurya, Brihadratha, ruling over a much diminished
empie, was assasinated by his commander-in-cheif, Pushyamitra, who seized
the throne."

page 43:

"The reference to the war between Pushyamitra and Yajnasena of Vidarbha,
suggests that the apportionment of Maurya territory between the Sungas and
Andhras was not completed without bloodshed,...."

page 45:

"The last Sunga king, Devabhuti, or Devabhumi, was murdered about 80 BC at
the instigation of his minister, Vaudeva, by a slave-girl disguised as his
queen."

"In the eighth year of his reign he [Kharavela] had attacked and put to
flight the king of Rajagriha (Magaha), and sacked the fortress of
Goradha." Followed by a list of many other military attacks.

page 47:

"He [Gautaminputra Sri Satakarni, referred to as the greatest king of and
Andhra kings] is said by his mother to have destroyed the Sakas, Yavanas
and Pallavas, to have uprooted the Kshaharatas, and restored the glories
of the Satavahanas. A list of the lands he conquored is given in
considerable detail...[a large fraction of India]."

=========================

...and most of the first 100 pages mentions an average of about one war
per page in ancient India.

Nice innocent, peaceful Indians?

I think not.
Bama Brian
2009-12-02 16:59:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Post by Bama Brian
According to you, corporations are employing the unemployable. And
thereby reaping the rewards of what, exactly? You do know that
employing illegal aliens is a crime in most states?
If you think this is not a reciprocal issue with other countries, then
try moving to another country illegally and applying for a job there.
Perhaps the US should tailor its policies towards immigrants as other
'civilized' countries do.
Why the topic changed to illegal immigrants. Indians do not work
as janitors in US companies. That privilege is reserved for
Mexicans, pretty soon for white americans too.
Majority of immigrant Indians come to US either on student visa to study
for MS or PhD or on H1B visa, all of which is legal.
Uh-huh. And then they import brides, their family, their bride's
families, and so on. Cheaper by the dozen.

Mind you, I've enjoyed working with Indians; they tend to be quite
competent (except for a few I've met) and most are damn nice people,
having come from India's upper classes.

Problem is, we've got all the immigrants we need, both legal and
illegal. We make it far too easy for immigrants to come here and we
can't seem to educate our own children to take those jobs instead.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
kamal
2009-12-02 05:30:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
so? does it mean that the people who gave birth to your parents or
their parents and stole the land from native americans and gave it to
you -actually owned the land?
Post by Me, ...again!
80% of the people in the USA were born in the USA and so were their
parents.
so? did their ancestors fall from the heavens with an american
passport in hand? or did they come by boats the same way illegal
mexicans do?
Post by Me, ...again!
20% who are here came here (half of which are illegal), uninvited except
they are invited but not given legal status by employers, politicians,
their henchmen and of course law enforcement personnel. Nobody in his
senses would want to trade on his mexican cost of living with an
american one -if there weren't a job waiting for him once he gate-
crashes into the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
by exploitative corporations, after being born someplace else where their
home country can't make enough jobs for their own people.
your ancestors wouldn't have ended up here if it weren't for their
desire to search for a living. For that matter, they wouldn't have
left africa but for drought and tried settling down in europe.
Post by Me, ...again!
  just few generations
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
before.
Back before around 1900 when immigrants were coming to sponge off the
society and drive down wages and restrictive immigration laws came on the
books
Immigration laws were created by politicians and not by divine decree.
In fact, most of the labour (be it legal or otherwise) that comes into
the US comes with the blessings of corporations and the politicians
they bribe. Tom tancredo's ancestors gate-crashed into the US the same
way the people he intends to prosecute do. God didin't give his
ancestors a special right to settle down in the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
How would you feel if some group of Indians who
immigrated to USA in 1960s and became citizens,
now press for complete stopping of immigration.
I have actually met Mexicans who came legally and persons of Mexican
descent (born in the USA of Mexican parents) who feel that immigration
should be cut back drastically.
yes-nobody wants competition and/or over-crowding. That is a
legitimate oncern. The problem comes when you want them in the US -but
under restricted rights because the opprutunities back home are so
few.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the US born people who were displaced by immigrants have a right to
benefits of ones own country of birth rather than have those rights taken
the benefit of birth is that you can close down immigration (legal or
otherwise). If you want people to work for you in return for letting
them settle down in the US -that is exploitation/slavery.
Post by Me, ...again!
away and handed to immigrants whose only choice is to work for cheap while
the bosses make more money by exploitation.
yes-the dispute about illegal immigration is mostly a dispute about
corporations keeping the benefits of slavery to themselves and not
passing them down to people lower down the value chain. If it was a
dispute about over-crowding, then you would be looking to proecute
employers (and not employees) and also to close down visa issuing
consulatres.
According to you, corporations are employing the unemployable.  And
thereby reaping the rewards of what, exactly?  You do know that
employing illegal aliens is a crime in most states?
No -employing illegals is not a crime for which employer can be
prosecuted -in any of the 50 states of the United States. Point me to
a single CEO who has been arrested for employing illegals and I will
believe you. Only being present without a valid visa/green card/
citizenship is a crime for which the illegal can be prosecuted, but
the employer of illegals cannot be prosecuted.
If you think this is not a reciprocal issue with other countries, then
try moving to another country illegally and applying for a job there.
I am gainfully employed in my own country and don't feel like moving
to another country -either legally or otherwise.
Perhaps the US should tailor its policies towards immigrants as other
'civilized' countries do.
How you administer your own country is not of any concern to me. The
pt was that none of these illegal and legal immigrants would have been
present in the USA -but for businesses that want them in the US as
captive labour.
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
So, your sentence, above, does not tell the whole story, just like your
hightly limited knowledge of world history ignores the fact that serious
wars were taking place in all areas of the world where humans lives and
not just due to "whites." Maybe it will sink into your thick skull
that other (non-white) peoples carried out warfare, too, on a large scale.
yes -they did, but whites were more successful at winning wars than
others. To the victor go the spoils and also the blame.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the other historical evils of human culture (murder, theft, rape,
sati, untouchables, caste discrimination, slavery) have been present in
Indian history since writing began.
How would you know? Writing on clay tablets began in mesopotamia
before indus valley civilization as recorded.
Post by Me, ...again!
Maybe one day you will think about all of this and read some history with
an open mind. I spent the last ten years reading over 200 books, mostly on
history, economics, and economic history and there are no innocent people,
anywhere, and all issues that ever came up did not have simple and
uncomplicated details
no doubt about that.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Hypocrite? Yes
That's what you whites are doing.
Still a very very racist sentence. It is demagogery. It contributes
nothing constructive. At least you could have thanked all those white US
CEOs who took away millions of jobs from Americans and dumped them
jobs don't belong to anybody that they can be taken away from them.
Employment is an oppurtunity afforded by the investor to the worker to
provide a return on investment. A person who provides more value for
money than spent on him -is both exploited (from the worker's
perspective) as well as an asset to the employer. If a person does not
proviide an adequate return on investment -then by definition he is a
burden to the employer. If a person provides a return on invesyment
which is 1/4th that provided by a 3rd world worker -then it means that
his services are not competitively priced and he should opt for a
paycut to remain competitive.
Post by Me, ...again!
into India, like rain, that helped little dinky areas of India (eg
Bangalore, Mumbai, Heyderabad, etc.) become modern.
understand -wealth does not originate in the US, that it can be taken
away from americans or legislated by americans. United states is the
world's biggest debtor and there is no such thing as a rich debtor. If
you don't believe me -ask any loan shark or his victims. And FYI -
hyderbad hasn't changed much since investment started pouring in.
regards
-kamal
Kamal, despite your obvious concern for the recent illegal immigrants,
remember that there ARE legal means by which they could have entered the
legal means of immigration are created by a govt, and the means have
not been created intentionally to take advayntage of their poverty
back home and to make them work as captive labour.
country.  That they did not do so is their problem, and causes a problem
for the ordinary citizen.
In some ways -it does. Check the film "Gone with the wind". The rich
plantation owners shipped slave labour from africa and benefitted from
that labour greatly. All the same, the middle class (or lower) white
farmers who weren't rich felt strongly inconveniened by the labour
living in the shanties. If you are genuinely inconvenienced by them,
you should be paying attention to prosecting the businessowners ( aka
the plantation farmers' equivalent) rather than prosecuting the labour
shipped into the US. Prosecuting captive labour is something that law
enforcement personnel will do -if the businessowner complains that
concerned labour is not doing a good enough job.
When the original settlers came here, they had to build a new country
from scratch.  (I won't debate whether the existing Amerinds of the day
felt the settlers were legal or not, but they could have stopped the
immigration at that time.  As we all know, all of us having 20/20
the original settlers did not come in as labour but as conquerors/
traders. Most of the comparative advantage that americans hold
(including the stuff that was instrumental in bringing about a
collapse of communist regimes) was due to the huge landmass that they
stole for american indians. You didn't have to build it from scratch
as much as you inherited it by default when the natives died of
sickness & mayhem inflicted on them.
hindsight.)  But my point is that the Amerinds did NOT have to pay the
new illegal immigrants' medical, education, or even give them unearned
money so they might purchase food and clothing, and so survive.
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy to understand
that they were not parasites. A person who works for $10 illegally
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert.  If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged.  But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are -unless they have capital to utilize
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.

regards
-kamal
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Me, ...again!
2009-12-02 14:43:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
so? does it mean that the people who gave birth to your parents or
their parents and stole the land from native americans and gave it to
you -actually owned the land?
Post by Me, ...again!
80% of the people in the USA were born in the USA and so were their
parents.
so? did their ancestors fall from the heavens with an american
passport in hand? or did they come by boats the same way illegal
mexicans do?
Post by Me, ...again!
20% who are here came here (half of which are illegal), uninvited except
they are invited but not given legal status by employers, politicians,
their henchmen and of course law enforcement personnel. Nobody in his
senses would want to trade on his mexican cost of living with an
american one -if there weren't a job waiting for him once he gate-
crashes into the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
by exploitative corporations, after being born someplace else where their
home country can't make enough jobs for their own people.
your ancestors wouldn't have ended up here if it weren't for their
desire to search for a living. For that matter, they wouldn't have
left africa but for drought and tried settling down in europe.
Post by Me, ...again!
  just few generations
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
before.
Back before around 1900 when immigrants were coming to sponge off the
society and drive down wages and restrictive immigration laws came on the
books
Immigration laws were created by politicians and not by divine decree.
In fact, most of the labour (be it legal or otherwise) that comes into
the US comes with the blessings of corporations and the politicians
they bribe. Tom tancredo's ancestors gate-crashed into the US the same
way the people he intends to prosecute do. God didin't give his
ancestors a special right to settle down in the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
How would you feel if some group of Indians who
immigrated to USA in 1960s and became citizens,
now press for complete stopping of immigration.
I have actually met Mexicans who came legally and persons of Mexican
descent (born in the USA of Mexican parents) who feel that immigration
should be cut back drastically.
yes-nobody wants competition and/or over-crowding. That is a
legitimate oncern. The problem comes when you want them in the US -but
under restricted rights because the opprutunities back home are so
few.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the US born people who were displaced by immigrants have a right to
benefits of ones own country of birth rather than have those rights taken
the benefit of birth is that you can close down immigration (legal or
otherwise). If you want people to work for you in return for letting
them settle down in the US -that is exploitation/slavery.
Post by Me, ...again!
away and handed to immigrants whose only choice is to work for cheap while
the bosses make more money by exploitation.
yes-the dispute about illegal immigration is mostly a dispute about
corporations keeping the benefits of slavery to themselves and not
passing them down to people lower down the value chain. If it was a
dispute about over-crowding, then you would be looking to proecute
employers (and not employees) and also to close down visa issuing
consulatres.
According to you, corporations are employing the unemployable.  And
thereby reaping the rewards of what, exactly?  You do know that
employing illegal aliens is a crime in most states?
No -employing illegals is not a crime for which employer can be
prosecuted -in any of the 50 states of the United States.
This is not true at all. INS has been investigating companies, in
increasing frequency, and the company must pay a fine and the illegals get
hauled off in a truck and deported. There have been several articles in
the WSJ in the last few years.

I actually overheard a conversation in a public place between a owner of a
fairly big company tell someone else he was raided and they fined him
$25,000 for having a lot of employees who could not document that they
were in the USA legally.

Point me to
Post by kamal
a single CEO who has been arrested for employing illegals and I will
believe you.
See above.

Only being present without a valid visa/green card/
Post by kamal
citizenship is a crime for which the illegal can be prosecuted, but
the employer of illegals cannot be prosecuted.
Not true at all. They are subject to fines.
Post by kamal
If you think this is not a reciprocal issue with other countries, then
try moving to another country illegally and applying for a job there.
I am gainfully employed in my own country and don't feel like moving
to another country -either legally or otherwise.
Perhaps the US should tailor its policies towards immigrants as other
'civilized' countries do.
How you administer your own country is not of any concern to me. The
pt was that none of these illegal and legal immigrants would have been
present in the USA -but for businesses that want them in the US as
captive labour.
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
So, your sentence, above, does not tell the whole story, just like your
hightly limited knowledge of world history ignores the fact that serious
wars were taking place in all areas of the world where humans lives and
not just due to "whites." Maybe it will sink into your thick skull
that other (non-white) peoples carried out warfare, too, on a large scale.
yes -they did, but whites were more successful at winning wars than
others. To the victor go the spoils and also the blame.
Not true either. Wars in India and China in past history killed more
people than whites ever killed.
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
understand -wealth does not originate in the US,
It is a verifiable fact that 75% of all business transactions in the whole
world are paid for in money denominated in USD.

It may change with China in a decade or two, but the USA is still the
richest country in the world with Japan as number two.

that it can be taken
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
away from americans or legislated by americans.
It is being taken away by undervalued currency countries like India and
China and SE Asia.

United states is the
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
world's biggest debtor
And, India, a very very poor country, is the 12th largest debtor, and
Japan is second largest debtor.
Post by kamal
and there is no such thing as a rich debtor.
The countries that have the highest standards of living are rich.

If
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
you don't believe me -ask any loan shark or his victims.
Wise people use loans wisely, foolish people lose their asses.

And FYI -
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
hyderbad hasn't changed much since investment started pouring in.
Not what is in the newspapers.
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
regards
-kamal
Kamal, despite your obvious concern for the recent illegal immigrants,
remember that there ARE legal means by which they could have entered the
legal means of immigration are created by a govt, and the means have
not been created intentionally to take advayntage of their poverty
back home and to make them work as captive labour.
What Kamal is really trying to say here is that he wants it possible for
millions to tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions to just land on
the shores of the USA and have the USA dump nice jobs into the laps of all
of them.
Post by kamal
country.  That they did not do so is their problem, and causes a problem
for the ordinary citizen.
In some ways -it does. Check the film "Gone with the wind". The rich
plantation owners shipped slave labour from africa and benefitted from
that labour greatly.
The facts have been studied by economists. It was not that much. Slaves
were very expensive and they were always revolting. In the end, the South
lost the war.

All the same, the middle class (or lower) white
Post by kamal
farmers who weren't rich felt strongly inconveniened by the labour
living in the shanties. If you are genuinely inconvenienced by them,
you should be paying attention to prosecting the businessowners ( aka
the plantation farmers' equivalent) rather than prosecuting the labour
shipped into the US.
The South lost the war, the slaves were released by the govt, Lincoln.

Prosecuting captive labour is something that law
Post by kamal
enforcement personnel will do -if the businessowner complains that
concerned labour is not doing a good enough job.
A big misrepresentation of the facts.
Post by kamal
When the original settlers came here, they had to build a new country
from scratch.  (I won't debate whether the existing Amerinds of the day
felt the settlers were legal or not, but they could have stopped the
immigration at that time.  As we all know, all of us having 20/20
the original settlers did not come in as labour but as conquerors/
traders.
The original settlers came to escape poor economic, religious, and
political conditions in Europe.

Most of the comparative advantage that americans hold
Post by kamal
(including the stuff that was instrumental in bringing about a
collapse of communist regimes) was due to the huge landmass that they
stole for american indians.
The American Indians were disorganized, uneducated, and unable to defend
themselves. Don't forget that in India, your country, the history books
show that Indians in India killed very large numbers of Indians in India
and stole their land, too. I have three history books now on India and
they all say the same thing: your country was as bloody and war torn, or
more, than anywhere else on the planet's history.

You didn't have to build it from scratch
Post by kamal
as much as you inherited it by default
Settlers "inherited" totally undeveloped land, and all of the "developed"
land in Europe was owned by the super-rich of Europe with almost no chance
for poor to get anything.

when the natives died of
Post by kamal
sickness & mayhem inflicted on them.
Don't forget that the Mongols (the yellow race), of the Mongol Empire
(which was built on conquest, killing, and stealing land), brought the
Plague to Europe in the 1300s and after, and killed 30% of all Europeans.
Post by kamal
hindsight.)  But my point is that the Amerinds did NOT have to pay the
new illegal immigrants' medical, education, or even give them unearned
money so they might purchase food and clothing, and so survive.
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy
You need to focus on who benefits: the rich, the managers, and the
executives.

to understand
Post by kamal
that they were not parasites.
It is an economic fact that the poor illegals take more in services, paid
for by the taxpayer, than they pay in taxes. They are parasites.

And, they are uneducated and usually do not speak the language.

A person who works for $10 illegally
Post by kamal
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
Also wrong. It is an economic fact that the average illegal sends 5% of
his earnings back to his home, and that is stealing 5% of the money that
would be spent in the locality where the illegal is living and working.
So, they are stealing -- in the form of remitances -- many tens of $
billions of USD per year, out of the USA.

It is an economic fact that 10% of Mexico's GDP is from remitances from
the USA.

It is an economic fact that 11% of Phillipine Island GDP is from
remitances from Phillipinos working all over the world outside of the
Phillipine Islands.
Post by kamal
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert.  If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged.  But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are
And, capitalists who only care about ROI go where they can make the most
money and to hell with who is hurt in the process.

-unless they have capital to utilize
Post by kamal
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
You are missing the point that the gate crash has victims and the victoms
are damaged in the process.
Post by kamal
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.
regards
-kamal
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Bama Brian
2009-12-02 17:21:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Then stop bitching about immigration when all of you
whites are also immigrants,
I was born in the USA, both my parents were born in the USA.
so? does it mean that the people who gave birth to your parents or
their parents and stole the land from native americans and gave it to
you -actually owned the land?
Post by Me, ...again!
80% of the people in the USA were born in the USA and so were their
parents.
so? did their ancestors fall from the heavens with an american
passport in hand? or did they come by boats the same way illegal
mexicans do?
Post by Me, ...again!
20% who are here came here (half of which are illegal), uninvited except
they are invited but not given legal status by employers, politicians,
their henchmen and of course law enforcement personnel. Nobody in his
senses would want to trade on his mexican cost of living with an
american one -if there weren't a job waiting for him once he gate-
crashes into the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
by exploitative corporations, after being born someplace else where their
home country can't make enough jobs for their own people.
your ancestors wouldn't have ended up here if it weren't for their
desire to search for a living. For that matter, they wouldn't have
left africa but for drought and tried settling down in europe.
Post by Me, ...again!
just few generations
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
before.
Back before around 1900 when immigrants were coming to sponge off the
society and drive down wages and restrictive immigration laws came on the
books
Immigration laws were created by politicians and not by divine decree.
In fact, most of the labour (be it legal or otherwise) that comes into
the US comes with the blessings of corporations and the politicians
they bribe. Tom tancredo's ancestors gate-crashed into the US the same
way the people he intends to prosecute do. God didin't give his
ancestors a special right to settle down in the US.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
How would you feel if some group of Indians who
immigrated to USA in 1960s and became citizens,
now press for complete stopping of immigration.
I have actually met Mexicans who came legally and persons of Mexican
descent (born in the USA of Mexican parents) who feel that immigration
should be cut back drastically.
yes-nobody wants competition and/or over-crowding. That is a
legitimate oncern. The problem comes when you want them in the US -but
under restricted rights because the opprutunities back home are so
few.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the US born people who were displaced by immigrants have a right to
benefits of ones own country of birth rather than have those rights taken
the benefit of birth is that you can close down immigration (legal or
otherwise). If you want people to work for you in return for letting
them settle down in the US -that is exploitation/slavery.
Post by Me, ...again!
away and handed to immigrants whose only choice is to work for cheap while
the bosses make more money by exploitation.
yes-the dispute about illegal immigration is mostly a dispute about
corporations keeping the benefits of slavery to themselves and not
passing them down to people lower down the value chain. If it was a
dispute about over-crowding, then you would be looking to proecute
employers (and not employees) and also to close down visa issuing
consulatres.
According to you, corporations are employing the unemployable. And
thereby reaping the rewards of what, exactly? You do know that
employing illegal aliens is a crime in most states?
No -employing illegals is not a crime for which employer can be
prosecuted -in any of the 50 states of the United States. Point me to
a single CEO who has been arrested for employing illegals and I will
believe you. Only being present without a valid visa/green card/
citizenship is a crime for which the illegal can be prosecuted, but
the employer of illegals cannot be prosecuted.
Post by Bama Brian
If you think this is not a reciprocal issue with other countries, then
try moving to another country illegally and applying for a job there.
I am gainfully employed in my own country and don't feel like moving
to another country -either legally or otherwise.
Post by Bama Brian
Perhaps the US should tailor its policies towards immigrants as other
'civilized' countries do.
How you administer your own country is not of any concern to me. The
pt was that none of these illegal and legal immigrants would have been
present in the USA -but for businesses that want them in the US as
captive labour.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Me, ...again!
So, your sentence, above, does not tell the whole story, just like your
hightly limited knowledge of world history ignores the fact that serious
wars were taking place in all areas of the world where humans lives and
not just due to "whites." Maybe it will sink into your thick skull
that other (non-white) peoples carried out warfare, too, on a large scale.
yes -they did, but whites were more successful at winning wars than
others. To the victor go the spoils and also the blame.
Post by Me, ...again!
All the other historical evils of human culture (murder, theft, rape,
sati, untouchables, caste discrimination, slavery) have been present in
Indian history since writing began.
How would you know? Writing on clay tablets began in mesopotamia
before indus valley civilization as recorded.
Post by Me, ...again!
Maybe one day you will think about all of this and read some history with
an open mind. I spent the last ten years reading over 200 books, mostly on
history, economics, and economic history and there are no innocent people,
anywhere, and all issues that ever came up did not have simple and
uncomplicated details
no doubt about that.
Post by Me, ...again!
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Hypocrite? Yes
That's what you whites are doing.
Still a very very racist sentence. It is demagogery. It contributes
nothing constructive. At least you could have thanked all those white US
CEOs who took away millions of jobs from Americans and dumped them
jobs don't belong to anybody that they can be taken away from them.
Employment is an oppurtunity afforded by the investor to the worker to
provide a return on investment. A person who provides more value for
money than spent on him -is both exploited (from the worker's
perspective) as well as an asset to the employer. If a person does not
proviide an adequate return on investment -then by definition he is a
burden to the employer. If a person provides a return on invesyment
which is 1/4th that provided by a 3rd world worker -then it means that
his services are not competitively priced and he should opt for a
paycut to remain competitive.
Post by Me, ...again!
into India, like rain, that helped little dinky areas of India (eg
Bangalore, Mumbai, Heyderabad, etc.) become modern.
understand -wealth does not originate in the US, that it can be taken
away from americans or legislated by americans. United states is the
world's biggest debtor and there is no such thing as a rich debtor. If
you don't believe me -ask any loan shark or his victims. And FYI -
hyderbad hasn't changed much since investment started pouring in.
regards
-kamal
Kamal, despite your obvious concern for the recent illegal immigrants,
remember that there ARE legal means by which they could have entered the
legal means of immigration are created by a govt, and the means have
not been created intentionally to take advayntage of their poverty
back home and to make them work as captive labour.
Post by Bama Brian
country. That they did not do so is their problem, and causes a problem
for the ordinary citizen.
In some ways -it does. Check the film "Gone with the wind". The rich
plantation owners shipped slave labour from africa and benefitted from
that labour greatly. All the same, the middle class (or lower) white
farmers who weren't rich felt strongly inconveniened by the labour
living in the shanties. If you are genuinely inconvenienced by them,
you should be paying attention to prosecting the businessowners ( aka
the plantation farmers' equivalent) rather than prosecuting the labour
shipped into the US. Prosecuting captive labour is something that law
enforcement personnel will do -if the businessowner complains that
concerned labour is not doing a good enough job.
Post by Bama Brian
When the original settlers came here, they had to build a new country
from scratch. (I won't debate whether the existing Amerinds of the day
felt the settlers were legal or not, but they could have stopped the
immigration at that time. As we all know, all of us having 20/20
the original settlers did not come in as labour but as conquerors/
traders. Most of the comparative advantage that americans hold
(including the stuff that was instrumental in bringing about a
collapse of communist regimes) was due to the huge landmass that they
stole for american indians. You didn't have to build it from scratch
as much as you inherited it by default when the natives died of
sickness & mayhem inflicted on them.
Post by Bama Brian
hindsight.) But my point is that the Amerinds did NOT have to pay the
new illegal immigrants' medical, education, or even give them unearned
money so they might purchase food and clothing, and so survive.
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy to understand
that they were not parasites. A person who works for $10 illegally
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
That's rather specious logic. The fellow making $10 an hour cannot
contribute the additional $40 to the economy; he will never have it. As
to the $40 which he did not earn, where do you think it gets
contributed? If I'm hearing you correctly, you think it will only land
in some robber baron's pocket, a meme which is not true and has never
been true.

In any case, most factories are now offshore, where whatever salary that
is paid is only a fraction of that $10. The only people who benefit
from this are the accountants, and the CEO's who respond only to their
Boards of Directors and their voting shareholders.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert. If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged. But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are -unless they have capital to utilize
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.
In the case of those who come here on a work visa, yes, the companies
lobby for them. Not so much because they are cheaper to hire - they're
not, especially after their first job change. And here I speak as a
former Silicon Valley hiring manager. Instead, companies want them and
hire them because competent home-grown employees are very hard to find.
This is a fault of the Amurrican public skool sistim, and the cultural
imfassis on being a rock star or sports hero, or even winning the lottery.

Having said that, a surprising number of job visa employees are as
incompetent as any American dummy, credentialed or not. But we don't
know this until they have burrowed into a company where it is difficult
to fire them.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
kamal
2009-12-03 05:47:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy to understand
that they were not parasites. A person who works for $10 illegally
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
That's rather specious logic.  The fellow making $10 an hour cannot
contribute the additional $40 to the economy; he will never have it.  As
To understand what I am saying, you need to understand trade-able
goods & services. The dollar bill in your hand is not real wealth. It
is a promisory note or a medium of exchanging trade-able goods/
services within an economy. It doesn't cost Bernanke anything to
manufacture those promisory notes -and it isn't his idea either (but
that of ancient egyptians 5000 yrs back). The amount of trade-able
goods & services a promisory note buys s the purchasing power of a
currency. When you bring in captive labour and make that person work
for $10 the equivalent of what it takes $50 to get the same work done
from a citizen, the person contributes $40 worth of trade-able goods
and services to the local economy (where the currency is in
circulation).
to the $40 which he did not earn, where do you think it gets
contributed?  If I'm hearing you correctly, you think it will only land
in some robber baron's pocket, a meme which is not true and has never
been true.
the contribution of extra trade-able goods/services goes to anyone
with the currency to buy them. The robber baron/plantation farmer/
business owner is the first one to buy those services -and then he
sells the same for a profit to other consumers within the local
economy (or outside). Things like cost of construction, garbage
removal etc.. have come down crashing in the US thanks to captive
labour from mexico. The agricultural produce that would have to
compete in the international market and would have found it difficult
to do so with american worker' wages as input became cometitive thanks
to captive farm hands from mexico and other poor countries. I also
remember reading that disk drives were uneconomical to manufacture at
IBM in the 1970s-80s, but with the arrival of boat people aka refugees
from the vietnam war, the economics changed bringing about the
personal computer revolution.
In any case, most factories are now offshore, where whatever salary that
is paid is only a fraction of that $10.  The only people who benefit
from this are the accountants, and the CEO's who respond only to their
Boards of Directors and their voting shareholders.
and how will the benefit from cheap labour if they cannot sell the
produce to americans? Americans love the benefits of cheaper
goods.available at walmart/discount retailers by paying 1$/day or less
to 3rd world workers, about the same way they loved the cheaper cars
produced by post-war poverty stricken japanese workforce.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert.  If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged.  But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are -unless they have capital to utilize
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.
In the case of those who come here on a work visa, yes, the companies
lobby for them.  Not so much because they are cheaper to hire - they're
not, especially after their first job change.  And here I speak as a
US govt has legal provisions in place to ensure that all visa holders
are captive to their sponsor.
former Silicon Valley hiring manager.  Instead, companies want them and
hire them because competent home-grown employees are very hard to find.
for the right price -yes.
  This is a fault of the Amurrican public skool sistim, and the cultural
imfassis on being a rock star or sports hero, or even winning the lottery.
not exactly. Just to be clear, neither is the education system great
in India -nor do people have different aspirations about getting rich
quick than americans do. If getting the right talent is what you are
looking for, then you should be sponsoring visas for people from
technologically advanced countries. But then, it is going to cost more
to do so than to hire local manpower. Which explains why valuable
talent always comes in from poverty-stricken 3rd world countries.
Having said that, a surprising number of job visa employees are as
incompetent as any American dummy, credentialed or not.  But we don't
know this until they have burrowed into a company where it is difficult
to fire them.
they are as good or as bad (or as human) as people from any other
country. Further, there is no foreign manpower that a country cannot
do without. If you don't like someone in your country, best thing is
to not let them in.

regards
-kamal
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
Bama Brian
2009-12-03 17:47:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy to understand
that they were not parasites. A person who works for $10 illegally
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
That's rather specious logic. The fellow making $10 an hour cannot
contribute the additional $40 to the economy; he will never have it. As
To understand what I am saying, you need to understand trade-able
goods & services. The dollar bill in your hand is not real wealth. It
is a promisory note or a medium of exchanging trade-able goods/
services within an economy. It doesn't cost Bernanke anything to
manufacture those promisory notes -and it isn't his idea either (but
that of ancient egyptians 5000 yrs back). The amount of trade-able
goods & services a promisory note buys s the purchasing power of a
currency. When you bring in captive labour and make that person work
for $10 the equivalent of what it takes $50 to get the same work done
from a citizen, the person contributes $40 worth of trade-able goods
and services to the local economy (where the currency is in
circulation).
The flaw in your theory is that the fellow who earns only $10 per hour
does not earn enough to buy the goods he manufactures.

And then there are all the off-shore factories, where no American works
and can not earn any money at all with which to buy goods.

Or do you somehow think that burger flippers and store clerks make good
wages?
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
to the $40 which he did not earn, where do you think it gets
contributed? If I'm hearing you correctly, you think it will only land
in some robber baron's pocket, a meme which is not true and has never
been true.
the contribution of extra trade-able goods/services goes to anyone
with the currency to buy them. The robber baron/plantation farmer/
business owner is the first one to buy those services -and then he
sells the same for a profit to other consumers within the local
economy (or outside). Things like cost of construction, garbage
removal etc.. have come down crashing in the US thanks to captive
labour from mexico.
BZZZT! Wrong! If I buy an item for $1,000 and wish to make a profit on
it by selling it to someone else, then that person must have at least
$1,000 plus whatever margins I must add to it in order to stay in biz.

Now where is that person going to get that $1,000 plus? Not from a
'slave labor' job. Even the most addled of CEO's acknowledges that he
must understand his customer base in order to stay in biz, and they all
know that their factory workers are going to be a part of that customer
base.

Yes, there are lots of Mexicans working construction. Many of them do
fine work; many do not. But they are not regulated, do not have to
learn all the basics necessary to become a union journeyman, and so on.
Which means that a contractor needs to choose his laborers carefully
lest he find himself in court for negligence and outright fraud when his
building falls apart.

The main characteristic that the Mexicans bring to the building trade is
their willingness to work and to do what they are told, unlike so many
native-born Americans.
Post by kamal
The agricultural produce that would have to
compete in the international market and would have found it difficult
to do so with american worker' wages as input became cometitive thanks
to captive farm hands from mexico and other poor countries.
That is true, and it entirely depends on the willingness of the
Americans to work at back-breaking labor for low wages. Here, you have
a point, although the bracero programs are quite legal. Mind you, the
Mexicans who do this sort of work are glad to have it, even if they are
sent back to Mexico at the end of the season.
Post by kamal
I also
remember reading that disk drives were uneconomical to manufacture at
IBM in the 1970s-80s, but with the arrival of boat people aka refugees
from the vietnam war, the economics changed bringing about the
personal computer revolution.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the PC revolution. Consumer
demand was king in those days, especially when the PC seemed to bring so
many answers to so many problems. Today, of course, the computer
revolution embraces everything from toothbrushes to televisions to
automobiles to PC's.

But it was the economies of scale and the extremely rapid pace of
technology that brought about this revolution - and not some IBM factory
up in Armonk, NY.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
In any case, most factories are now offshore, where whatever salary that
is paid is only a fraction of that $10. The only people who benefit
from this are the accountants, and the CEO's who respond only to their
Boards of Directors and their voting shareholders.
and how will the benefit from cheap labour if they cannot sell the
produce to americans? Americans love the benefits of cheaper
goods.available at walmart/discount retailers by paying 1$/day or less
to 3rd world workers, about the same way they loved the cheaper cars
produced by post-war poverty stricken japanese workforce.
I have made that same argument for the last twenty years; yet when you
have every existing president, past and present, all lined up to push
the benefits of NAFTA on the US, I became a voice crying in the wilderness.

The US is not benefiting from the off-shore factories. Indeed, the US
economy is poised to completely crash from a number of decisions made by
wrong-headed politicians who could not see beyond the bribes they were
offered.

But there's no such thing as 'slave labor' in American factories, or in
programming factories like Microsoft, or anywhere else for that matter.
All who work receive a wage for what they do. If they don't like it,
they could perhaps emulate the young bracero who decided he didn't like
stoop labor, found ways to get through college and med school, and is
today a respected neurosurgeon here in the US. Or, if they find the job
and the salary too onerous they could go find another job. Or they
could simply go home.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert. If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged. But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are -unless they have capital to utilize
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.
In the case of those who come here on a work visa, yes, the companies
lobby for them. Not so much because they are cheaper to hire - they're
not, especially after their first job change. And here I speak as a
US govt has legal provisions in place to ensure that all visa holders
are captive to their sponsor.
BZZZT! Wrong! Strange how so many visa holders manage to stay here in
the US, working for various companies in long careers. I've even seen
some who started their own companies and became rich.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
former Silicon Valley hiring manager. Instead, companies want them and
hire them because competent home-grown employees are very hard to find.
for the right price -yes.
I was willing to offer six-figure salaries, but could not find Americans
to do the jobs. Instead, I offered six-figure salaries to a surprising
number of visa holders, immigrants, and the children of immigrants.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
This is a fault of the Amurrican public skool sistim, and the cultural
imfassis on being a rock star or sports hero, or even winning the lottery.
not exactly. Just to be clear, neither is the education system great
in India -nor do people have different aspirations about getting rich
quick than americans do. If getting the right talent is what you are
looking for, then you should be sponsoring visas for people from
technologically advanced countries. But then, it is going to cost more
to do so than to hire local manpower. Which explains why valuable
talent always comes in from poverty-stricken 3rd world countries.
I offered six-figure salaries for anyone who was qualified. And that
was ten to twenty years ago.

But educated Americans with EE's were few and far between, despite
having huge student populations at the University of California,
Stanford, and even San Jose State.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Having said that, a surprising number of job visa employees are as
incompetent as any American dummy, credentialed or not. But we don't
know this until they have burrowed into a company where it is difficult
to fire them.
they are as good or as bad (or as human) as people from any other
country. Further, there is no foreign manpower that a country cannot
do without. If you don't like someone in your country, best thing is
to not let them in.
Heh! I suppose we could shut the borders completely; certainly the US
now has far too many people in it and now runs the risk of becoming
grossly overpopulated. Certainly, you yourself know what an
overpopulated country looks like, since you are posting from India.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
kamal
2009-12-04 06:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy to understand
that they were not parasites. A person who works for $10 illegally
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
That's rather specious logic.  The fellow making $10 an hour cannot
contribute the additional $40 to the economy; he will never have it.  As
To understand what I am saying, you need to understand trade-able
goods & services. The dollar bill in your hand is not real wealth. It
is a promisory note or a medium of exchanging trade-able goods/
services within an economy. It doesn't cost Bernanke anything to
manufacture those promisory notes -and it isn't his idea either (but
that of ancient egyptians 5000 yrs back). The amount of trade-able
goods & services a promisory note buys s the purchasing power of a
currency. When you bring in captive labour and make that person work
for $10 the equivalent of what it takes $50 to get the same work done
from a citizen, the person contributes $40 worth of trade-able goods
and services to the local economy (where the currency is in
circulation).
The flaw in your theory is that the fellow who earns only $10 per hour
does not earn enough to buy the goods he manufactures.
captive labour does not form a suitable customer base -yes. The
economy imports captive labour to satisfy the demands of an existing
customer base -so that they can deliver cheaper goods/services within
the citizenry's budgetary constraints. The hispanic labour that does
trash-cleaning in california provides cheaper services to the
citizenry and not to fellow mexicans.
Post by Bama Brian
And then there are all the off-shore factories, where no American works
and can not earn any money at all with which to buy goods.
Or do you somehow think that burger flippers and store clerks make good
wages?
yeah -that is where things like comparative advantage/monetary policy
etc come into the picture. Because of the US govt's monetary polcy -
the economy has shed jobs (as in entire industries) to cheaper
locations and the idled manpower re-trains itself for other higher-
valued jobs. In order for you to have a higher std of living than
anybody else, you need to generate higher-value goods/services than
anybody else.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
to the $40 which he did not earn, where do you think it gets
contributed?  If I'm hearing you correctly, you think it will only land
in some robber baron's pocket, a meme which is not true and has never
been true.
the contribution of extra trade-able goods/services goes to anyone
with the currency to buy them. The robber baron/plantation farmer/
business owner is the first one to buy those services -and then he
sells the same for a profit to other consumers within the local
economy (or outside). Things like cost of construction, garbage
removal etc.. have come down crashing in the US thanks to captive
labour from mexico.  
BZZZT!  Wrong!  If I buy an item for $1,000 and wish to make a profit on
it by selling it to someone else, then that person must have at least
$1,000 plus whatever margins I must add to it in order to stay in biz.
Now where is that person going to get that $1,000 plus?  Not from a
'slave labor' job.  Even the most addled of CEO's acknowledges that he
must understand his customer base in order to stay in biz, and they all
know that their factory workers are going to be a part of that customer
base.
I have answered your question already.
Post by Bama Brian
Yes, there are lots of Mexicans working construction.  Many of them do
fine work; many do not.  But they are not regulated, do not have to
learn all the basics necessary to become a union journeyman, and so on.
  Which means that a contractor needs to choose his laborers carefully
lest he find himself in court for negligence and outright fraud when his
building falls apart.
Comparative advantage dictates that a contractor who trains cheap/
captive labour to do the same job as free/expensive labour will
benefit in the long term.
Post by Bama Brian
The main characteristic that the Mexicans bring to the building trade is
their willingness to work and to do what they are told, unlike so many
native-born Americans.
which is why they are brought in by businesses in the first place. If
you do not want them to over-populate your country, the solution is to
make it an offence to offer employment to such people rather than
erecting a southern fence.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
The agricultural produce that would have to
compete in the international market and would have found it difficult
to do so with american worker' wages as input became cometitive thanks
to captive farm hands from mexico and other poor countries.
That is true, and it entirely depends on the willingness of the
Americans to work at back-breaking labor for low wages.  Here, you have
a point, although the bracero programs are quite legal.  Mind you, the
Mexicans who do this sort of work are glad to have it, even if they are
sent back to Mexico at the end of the season.
they are just caught between the devil and the deep sea. The deep sea
being their dysfunctional economy -and no prizes for guessing who the
devil is:-).
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
I also
remember reading that disk drives were uneconomical to manufacture at
IBM in the 1970s-80s, but with the arrival of boat people aka refugees
from the vietnam war, the economics changed bringing about the
personal computer revolution.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the PC revolution.  Consumer
demand was king in those days, especially when the PC seemed to bring so
many answers to so many problems.  Today, of course, the computer
No -PCs were unaffordable to most consumers up until a certain pt of
time, when IBM hit the sweet spot -by hiring the war refugees to work
on disk drives. Most of the work was done not in Armonk, NY but in
california (s. of san jose). These is also a court case pending/filed
against IBM in san jose, for exposing workers to cancerous chemicals.
Post by Bama Brian
revolution embraces everything from toothbrushes to televisions to
automobiles to PC's.
But it was the economies of scale and the extremely rapid pace of
technology that brought about this revolution - and not some IBM factory
up in Armonk, NY.
First part is correct, but to get to economies of scale -you need to
be able to deliver the product at the right price -which again
requires that either technology advances or that you find a way to get
ridiculously cheap labour. The refugees of the vietnam war provided
the 2nd because of their socio-economic condition.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
In any case, most factories are now offshore, where whatever salary that
is paid is only a fraction of that $10.  The only people who benefit
from this are the accountants, and the CEO's who respond only to their
Boards of Directors and their voting shareholders.
and how will the benefit from cheap labour if they cannot sell the
produce to americans? Americans love the benefits of cheaper
goods.available at walmart/discount retailers by paying 1$/day or less
to 3rd world workers, about the same way they loved the cheaper cars
produced by post-war poverty stricken japanese workforce.
I have made that same argument for the last twenty years; yet when you
have every existing president, past and present, all lined up to push
the benefits of NAFTA on the US, I became a voice crying in the wilderness.
You may want to look at what these countries get in return for selling
you all those cheap electronics/cars etc.. Its not real gold -but
funny money that costs nothing more than a few watts and paper pulp to
print.
Post by Bama Brian
The US is not benefiting from the off-shore factories.  Indeed, the US
economy is poised to completely crash from a number of decisions made by
wrong-headed politicians who could not see beyond the bribes they were
offered.
yes- the monetray policy is not eternally sustainable and there is a
lot of corruption wherein investment bankers rather than public
admiistrators dictate monetary policy.
Post by Bama Brian
But there's no such thing as 'slave labor' in American factories, or in
programming factories like Microsoft, or anywhere else for that matter.
  All who work receive a wage for what they do.  If they don't like it
even the slaves shipped to africa did get a wage -so that doesn't mean
they weren't enslaved. I may also note that when they were netteed -
they weren't exactly living in paradise. Labour is captive if it is
not free to take up other jobs for any reason and/or cannot command a
market-driven wage for its services the way local populace can. Each
and every visa holder whose visa is issued to employer is captive to
the employer. If you don't believe me -ask a practising lawyer within
your own country. And needless to say, all illegals are captive and
under threat of deportation should they crib.

,
Post by Bama Brian
they could perhaps emulate the young bracero who decided he didn't like
stoop labor, found ways to get through college and med school, and is
today a respected neurosurgeon here in the US.  Or, if they find the job
and the salary too onerous they could go find another job.  Or they
could simply go home.
entering is easier than going back. Best way to ensure you don't fall
prey to human trafficking is not to enter under restricted rights.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert.  If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged.  But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are -unless they have capital to utilize
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.
In the case of those who come here on a work visa, yes, the companies
lobby for them.  Not so much because they are cheaper to hire - they're
not, especially after their first job change.  And here I speak as a
US govt has legal provisions in place to ensure that all visa holders
are captive to their sponsor.
BZZZT!  Wrong!  Strange how so many visa holders manage to stay here in
the US, working for various companies in long careers.  I've even seen
some who started their own companies and became rich.
they do need to pay a price by working for their green card.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
former Silicon Valley hiring manager.  Instead, companies want them and
hire them because competent home-grown employees are very hard to find.
for the right price -yes.
I was willing to offer six-figure salaries, but could not find Americans
to do the jobs.  Instead, I offered six-figure salaries to a surprising
number of visa holders, immigrants, and the children of immigrants.
but you yourself said above that if work is shipped overseads(which it
already has), how will people who don't make $1000 buy a $1000 product
manufactured with cheap labour. Are you saying that most americans
will refuse a 6-figure salary? Check with IEEE USA, they will tell you
that they have hordes dying to work for 1/2 that amount.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
  This is a fault of the Amurrican public skool sistim, and the cultural
imfassis on being a rock star or sports hero, or even winning the lottery.
not exactly. Just to be clear, neither is the education system great
in India -nor do people have different aspirations about getting rich
quick than americans do. If getting the right talent is what you are
looking for, then you should be sponsoring visas for people from
technologically advanced countries. But then, it is going to cost more
to do so than to hire local manpower. Which explains why valuable
talent always comes in from poverty-stricken 3rd world countries.
I offered six-figure salaries for anyone who was qualified.  And that
was ten to twenty years ago.
But educated Americans with EE's were few and far between, despite
having huge student populations at the University of California,
Stanford, and even San Jose State.
you need to check with the workers' unions and they will tell you they
have a hard time finding jobs. I have myself worked for the Indian
offices of american companies to where the work was offshored, and I
know for a fact that they weren't happy to lose their jobs as in
couldn't find anything close to what they were making.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Having said that, a surprising number of job visa employees are as
incompetent as any American dummy, credentialed or not.  But we don't
know this until they have burrowed into a company where it is difficult
to fire them.
they are as good or as bad (or as human) as people from any other
country. Further, there is no foreign manpower that a country cannot
do without. If you don't like someone in your country, best thing is
to not let them in.
Heh!  I suppose we could shut the borders completely; certainly the US
now has far too many people in it and now runs the risk of becoming
That would be great -but shutting down the borders has not worked to
date. They must have tried all kinds of things along the southern
border and it just didn't deter people from trying all kinds of things
just to gate-crash into the US and improve thier chances of living.
One such thing was to cross the forbidden desert and some died of
thirst in that process -another was to come by raft across the florida
straits and many drowned during that process. If you really want to
control the inflow of foreigners, you need to prosecute employers for
employing them. Without the prospect of finding jobs, none of these
foreigners will risk gate-crashing into the US (about the same way
none of them will bother to settle down in s.w. usa or montana or
idaho).
Post by Bama Brian
grossly overpopulated.  Certainly, you yourself know what an
overpopulated country looks like, since you are posting from India.
Poulation in India -just like in USA varies from region to region.
Cities are over-populated because they offer more jobs to the rural
folks. Overall -it is over-populated but that is not hard to explain
for a 5000 yr old habitat vs 500 yr old habitat for humans.

regards
-kamal
Post by Bama Brian
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Bama Brian
2009-12-04 17:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy to understand
that they were not parasites. A person who works for $10 illegally
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
That's rather specious logic. The fellow making $10 an hour cannot
contribute the additional $40 to the economy; he will never have it. As
To understand what I am saying, you need to understand trade-able
goods & services. The dollar bill in your hand is not real wealth. It
is a promisory note or a medium of exchanging trade-able goods/
services within an economy. It doesn't cost Bernanke anything to
manufacture those promisory notes -and it isn't his idea either (but
that of ancient egyptians 5000 yrs back). The amount of trade-able
goods & services a promisory note buys s the purchasing power of a
currency. When you bring in captive labour and make that person work
for $10 the equivalent of what it takes $50 to get the same work done
from a citizen, the person contributes $40 worth of trade-able goods
and services to the local economy (where the currency is in
circulation).
The flaw in your theory is that the fellow who earns only $10 per hour
does not earn enough to buy the goods he manufactures.
captive labour does not form a suitable customer base -yes. The
economy imports captive labour to satisfy the demands of an existing
customer base -so that they can deliver cheaper goods/services within
the citizenry's budgetary constraints. The hispanic labour that does
trash-cleaning in california provides cheaper services to the
citizenry and not to fellow mexicans.
Post by Bama Brian
And then there are all the off-shore factories, where no American works
and can not earn any money at all with which to buy goods.
Or do you somehow think that burger flippers and store clerks make good
wages?
yeah -that is where things like comparative advantage/monetary policy
etc come into the picture. Because of the US govt's monetary polcy -
the economy has shed jobs (as in entire industries) to cheaper
locations and the idled manpower re-trains itself for other higher-
valued jobs. In order for you to have a higher std of living than
anybody else, you need to generate higher-value goods/services than
anybody else.
Unfortunately, those 'higher-valued' jobs are also being offshored.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
to the $40 which he did not earn, where do you think it gets
contributed? If I'm hearing you correctly, you think it will only land
in some robber baron's pocket, a meme which is not true and has never
been true.
the contribution of extra trade-able goods/services goes to anyone
with the currency to buy them. The robber baron/plantation farmer/
business owner is the first one to buy those services -and then he
sells the same for a profit to other consumers within the local
economy (or outside). Things like cost of construction, garbage
removal etc.. have come down crashing in the US thanks to captive
labour from mexico.
BZZZT! Wrong! If I buy an item for $1,000 and wish to make a profit on
it by selling it to someone else, then that person must have at least
$1,000 plus whatever margins I must add to it in order to stay in biz.
Now where is that person going to get that $1,000 plus? Not from a
'slave labor' job. Even the most addled of CEO's acknowledges that he
must understand his customer base in order to stay in biz, and they all
know that their factory workers are going to be a part of that customer
base.
I have answered your question already.
The higher valued jobs are being offshored. In any case, they represent
only the top ten percent of all jobs. IOW, there aren't enough doctor,
lawyer, or titan of industry jobs to go around. Nor are there enough
would-be employees with the ambition, or the brains, or even the
education to fill these positions.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Yes, there are lots of Mexicans working construction. Many of them do
fine work; many do not. But they are not regulated, do not have to
learn all the basics necessary to become a union journeyman, and so on.
Which means that a contractor needs to choose his laborers carefully
lest he find himself in court for negligence and outright fraud when his
building falls apart.
Comparative advantage dictates that a contractor who trains cheap/
captive labour to do the same job as free/expensive labour will
benefit in the long term.
Nobody in their right mind trains employees that will not stay put.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
The main characteristic that the Mexicans bring to the building trade is
their willingness to work and to do what they are told, unlike so many
native-born Americans.
which is why they are brought in by businesses in the first place. If
you do not want them to over-populate your country, the solution is to
make it an offence to offer employment to such people rather than
erecting a southern fence.
It already is, in most jurisdictions.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
The agricultural produce that would have to
compete in the international market and would have found it difficult
to do so with american worker' wages as input became cometitive thanks
to captive farm hands from mexico and other poor countries.
That is true, and it entirely depends on the willingness of the
Americans to work at back-breaking labor for low wages. Here, you have
a point, although the bracero programs are quite legal. Mind you, the
Mexicans who do this sort of work are glad to have it, even if they are
sent back to Mexico at the end of the season.
they are just caught between the devil and the deep sea. The deep sea
being their dysfunctional economy -and no prizes for guessing who the
devil is:-).
If you'd like to bash the US openly, go right ahead. But that will open
the door for me to bash India openly. We can then end the series by
calling each other names, once we have inflamed each other's passions.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
I also
remember reading that disk drives were uneconomical to manufacture at
IBM in the 1970s-80s, but with the arrival of boat people aka refugees
from the vietnam war, the economics changed bringing about the
personal computer revolution.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the PC revolution. Consumer
demand was king in those days, especially when the PC seemed to bring so
many answers to so many problems. Today, of course, the computer
No -PCs were unaffordable to most consumers up until a certain pt of
time, when IBM hit the sweet spot -by hiring the war refugees to work
on disk drives. Most of the work was done not in Armonk, NY but in
california (s. of san jose). These is also a court case pending/filed
against IBM in san jose, for exposing workers to cancerous chemicals.
Heh! Oh, THAT factory! IBM couldn't manufacture anything there cheaply
enough, no matter what they manufactured. The factory was established
back in the 50's, long before the flood of Vietnamese immigrants. IIRC,
the factory was ultimately sold to Hitachi, along with all of IBM's HDD
technology. BTW, the lawsuit you refer to was brought because a
statistically significant sample of women in the area of the factory
were having problems with their pregnancies. Yet California
investigated the birth anomalies and could find no direct link to the
IBM facility. AFAIK, IBM has won one of the original suits, although
there may yet be another suit.

Note that IBM also sold off its remaining laptop biz to Lenovo. PC's
have become too commoditized, with margins being too razor-thin, while
IBM's biz model has become that of selling services instead of hardware.

Just FYI, I had two Vietnamese working in my group; they never had cause
to complain about their pay.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
revolution embraces everything from toothbrushes to televisions to
automobiles to PC's.
But it was the economies of scale and the extremely rapid pace of
technology that brought about this revolution - and not some IBM factory
up in Armonk, NY.
First part is correct, but to get to economies of scale -you need to
be able to deliver the product at the right price -which again
requires that either technology advances or that you find a way to get
ridiculously cheap labour. The refugees of the vietnam war provided
the 2nd because of their socio-economic condition.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
In any case, most factories are now offshore, where whatever salary that
is paid is only a fraction of that $10. The only people who benefit
from this are the accountants, and the CEO's who respond only to their
Boards of Directors and their voting shareholders.
and how will the benefit from cheap labour if they cannot sell the
produce to americans? Americans love the benefits of cheaper
goods.available at walmart/discount retailers by paying 1$/day or less
to 3rd world workers, about the same way they loved the cheaper cars
produced by post-war poverty stricken japanese workforce.
I have made that same argument for the last twenty years; yet when you
have every existing president, past and present, all lined up to push
the benefits of NAFTA on the US, I became a voice crying in the wilderness.
You may want to look at what these countries get in return for selling
you all those cheap electronics/cars etc.. Its not real gold -but
funny money that costs nothing more than a few watts and paper pulp to
print.
Maybe. But it has value, which can be exchanged for goods, as you
pointed out earlier.

Further, with no backing to the dollar and the fedgov running the
printing presses overtime, even the retirees no longer have enough money.

It's called government created inflation, with recent examples being
Brazil and Zimbabwe.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
The US is not benefiting from the off-shore factories. Indeed, the US
economy is poised to completely crash from a number of decisions made by
wrong-headed politicians who could not see beyond the bribes they were
offered.
yes- the monetray policy is not eternally sustainable and there is a
lot of corruption wherein investment bankers rather than public
admiistrators dictate monetary policy.
Post by Bama Brian
But there's no such thing as 'slave labor' in American factories, or in
programming factories like Microsoft, or anywhere else for that matter.
All who work receive a wage for what they do. If they don't like it
even the slaves shipped to africa did get a wage -so that doesn't mean
they weren't enslaved.
Better look up the definition of a slave. Slaves are NOT paid salaries
and are held in bondage at the point of a gun.
Post by kamal
I may also note that when they were netteed -
they weren't exactly living in paradise. Labour is captive if it is
not free to take up other jobs for any reason and/or cannot command a
market-driven wage for its services the way local populace can. Each
and every visa holder whose visa is issued to employer is captive to
the employer. If you don't believe me -ask a practising lawyer within
your own country. And needless to say, all illegals are captive and
under threat of deportation should they crib.
Er, no.
Post by kamal
,
Post by Bama Brian
they could perhaps emulate the young bracero who decided he didn't like
stoop labor, found ways to get through college and med school, and is
today a respected neurosurgeon here in the US. Or, if they find the job
and the salary too onerous they could go find another job. Or they
could simply go home.
entering is easier than going back. Best way to ensure you don't fall
prey to human trafficking is not to enter under restricted rights.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert. If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged. But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are -unless they have capital to utilize
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.
In the case of those who come here on a work visa, yes, the companies
lobby for them. Not so much because they are cheaper to hire - they're
not, especially after their first job change. And here I speak as a
US govt has legal provisions in place to ensure that all visa holders
are captive to their sponsor.
BZZZT! Wrong! Strange how so many visa holders manage to stay here in
the US, working for various companies in long careers. I've even seen
some who started their own companies and became rich.
they do need to pay a price by working for their green card.
Nothing of value on this planet comes for free. Everything requires
work or some other sacrifice. You expect me to bleed for those poor,
poor green card holders who had to work hard to come here?
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
former Silicon Valley hiring manager. Instead, companies want them and
hire them because competent home-grown employees are very hard to find.
for the right price -yes.
I was willing to offer six-figure salaries, but could not find Americans
to do the jobs. Instead, I offered six-figure salaries to a surprising
number of visa holders, immigrants, and the children of immigrants.
but you yourself said above that if work is shipped overseads(which it
already has), how will people who don't make $1000 buy a $1000 product
manufactured with cheap labour. Are you saying that most americans
will refuse a 6-figure salary? Check with IEEE USA, they will tell you
that they have hordes dying to work for 1/2 that amount.
Odd that they can't find work...maybe it's because the factories were
moved offshore, in an effort to find VERY cheap labor? Even engineers
are counted as labor, BTW. We don't need manufacturing engineers when
the factory is offshore. We don't need design engineers when offshore
designers can use CAD/CAM processes.

When we don't have factories, we don't need expensive maintenance
people. We don't need factory workers. We don't need factory
accountants. We don't need process engineers. We don't need mechanical
engineers or EE's. We don't need expensive equipment purchased from
suppliers, so the suppliers don't need salesmen, R&D, or factories
themselves.

It is getting to the point that we don't need MD's to read X-rays, since
they can be e-mailed offshore and the diagnoses e-mailed back. An
entire industry is springing up offshore, where Americans who need
expensive surgery can go to a hospital in another country, get the work
done, and have a vacation of sorts, all much more cheaply than having
the work done here.

Soon we won't need as many surgeons.

We don't need law clerks doing research; instead the briefs can be
e-mailed offshore.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
This is a fault of the Amurrican public skool sistim, and the cultural
imfassis on being a rock star or sports hero, or even winning the lottery.
not exactly. Just to be clear, neither is the education system great
in India -nor do people have different aspirations about getting rich
quick than americans do. If getting the right talent is what you are
looking for, then you should be sponsoring visas for people from
technologically advanced countries. But then, it is going to cost more
to do so than to hire local manpower. Which explains why valuable
talent always comes in from poverty-stricken 3rd world countries.
I offered six-figure salaries for anyone who was qualified. And that
was ten to twenty years ago.
But educated Americans with EE's were few and far between, despite
having huge student populations at the University of California,
Stanford, and even San Jose State.
you need to check with the workers' unions and they will tell you they
have a hard time finding jobs. I have myself worked for the Indian
offices of american companies to where the work was offshored, and I
know for a fact that they weren't happy to lose their jobs as in
couldn't find anything close to what they were making.
You are making my points for me. It's not that the Americans are
replaced with slave labor in America; it is that the American jobs have
moved offshore where the labor is extremely cheap.

Now whether or not you call the offshore employers 'slaveholders' is
entirely your own issue, and none of the US's.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Having said that, a surprising number of job visa employees are as
incompetent as any American dummy, credentialed or not. But we don't
know this until they have burrowed into a company where it is difficult
to fire them.
they are as good or as bad (or as human) as people from any other
country. Further, there is no foreign manpower that a country cannot
do without. If you don't like someone in your country, best thing is
to not let them in.
Heh! I suppose we could shut the borders completely; certainly the US
now has far too many people in it and now runs the risk of becoming
That would be great -but shutting down the borders has not worked to
date. They must have tried all kinds of things along the southern
border and it just didn't deter people from trying all kinds of things
just to gate-crash into the US and improve thier chances of living.
One such thing was to cross the forbidden desert and some died of
thirst in that process -another was to come by raft across the florida
straits and many drowned during that process. If you really want to
control the inflow of foreigners, you need to prosecute employers for
employing them. Without the prospect of finding jobs, none of these
foreigners will risk gate-crashing into the US (about the same way
none of them will bother to settle down in s.w. usa or montana or
idaho).
Such employers are prosecuted when found. As to the fate of the
illegals in the desert, well, ask yourself what would be their fate had
they stayed home.

Just FYI, the Cuban and Haitian would-be immigrants are being turned
away now. Seems like Florida has more than enough people on the welfare
rolls.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
grossly overpopulated. Certainly, you yourself know what an
overpopulated country looks like, since you are posting from India.
Poulation in India -just like in USA varies from region to region.
Cities are over-populated because they offer more jobs to the rural
folks. Overall -it is over-populated but that is not hard to explain
for a 5000 yr old habitat vs 500 yr old habitat for humans.
Is that a "duck and dodge" designed to deflect the idea that India is
the second most populous country on the planet, while the US is third?
We need less immigrants; you need more emigrants. But we no longer need
or want yours.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
i***@india.com
2009-12-04 18:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bama Brian
The higher valued jobs are being offshored. In any case, they represent
only the top ten percent of all jobs. IOW, there aren't enough doctor,
lawyer, or titan of industry jobs to go around.
Yeah lot of americans are pissed off about docs as everyone needs a
doc. Need for laywer is not for all.

May I suggest opening up medical front to Indians. Let Indians flood
america with good doctors. Within no time doctors would become affordable
and healthcare cost reasonable.

Problem is that majority of Americans are slow brain. They don't
understand having a perennial labor shortage market is never good
for economy or society. The soaring healthcare cost is the best
example of it.

Flood US with Indian doctors and nurse.
Me, ...again!
2009-12-04 21:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@india.com
Post by Bama Brian
The higher valued jobs are being offshored. In any case, they represent
only the top ten percent of all jobs. IOW, there aren't enough doctor,
lawyer, or titan of industry jobs to go around.
Yeah lot of americans are pissed off about docs as everyone needs a
doc. Need for laywer is not for all.
As if Indians don't need docs?
Post by i***@india.com
May I suggest opening up medical front to Indians. Let Indians flood
america with good doctors.
In case anyone reading this does not know it, it is a fact that India
graduates more doctors than India can employ. So, "indian" wants to
promote more job-creation for Indians to immigrate into the USA and now
displace more US-born docs. Or, should I call it additional transfer of
jobs from Americans to Indians as a version of additional "job theft"

Within no time doctors would become affordable
Post by i***@india.com
and healthcare cost reasonable.
Of course you would not want to acknowledge that the US docs, now
unemployed would stop buying anything which would hurt the US economy, and
Indian docs would also be sending money back to India and thus take out
more money out of our economy to hurt local economy.

Nice try, but everyone should learn to recognize "forked toungue" of
Indians trying to "sell" some dumb idea to America.
Post by i***@india.com
Problem is that majority of Americans are slow brain.
Yeah, all those "smart" brained Indians in India, a country with one tenth
of US GDP and four times as many people converts into an Indian GDP per
person that is 2.5% of US GDP per person.

Yeah, if you guys are so smart, why aren't you rich?

They don't
Post by i***@india.com
understand having a perennial labor shortage market is never good
for economy or society.
Oh, so you say that the USA is supposed to be a free employment bureau for
any and all Indians that want a better life than shit-hole India, eh?

The soaring healthcare cost is the best
Post by i***@india.com
example of it.
This is mostly due to US doctors having such a good insurance/govt subsidy
program that the docs can write unlimited services and prescriptions to
make themselves rich.

And, all you are asking is to hurt the US docs and help Indian docs.

They will do the same thing once they get here, and raise unemployment in
the USA.
Post by i***@india.com
Flood US with Indian doctors and nurse.
How self-serving! Of course, we could do even better with Mexican doctors
and nurses, and have higher quality service, too.
Jack Welch
2009-12-05 15:39:08 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@osmium.mv.net>, Me, ...again!
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
Yeah, if you guys are so smart, why aren't you rich?
This is the question I would like to ask you and other
delusional Americans who think they are smart and educated.
Most of so called smart and hardworking Americans do not make
more than 100K in a year. That's an amount a mediocre CEO
would make in a week or two weeks, what to talk about CEOs
like me.

Bill Gates once said "it is not anyone's fault to be born poor,
but it is 100% that person's fault to live and die poor". Now
apply that to ranting and raving Americans like you.

Do you agree asshole Art Sowers.
Me, ...again!
2009-12-05 18:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
Yeah, if you guys are so smart, why aren't you rich?
This is the question I would like to ask you and other
delusional Americans who think they are smart and educated.
I asked my question first, and why are you not answering it?
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Most of so called smart and hardworking Americans do not make
more than 100K in a year.
What does an arbitrarily chosen figure like 100K have to do with being
smart?

That's an amount a mediocre CEO
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
would make in a week or two weeks, what to talk about CEOs
like me.
Oh? you are a CEO? I really doubt that. Not to mention masquerading as
"Jack Welch".
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Bill Gates once said "it is not anyone's fault to be born poor,
but it is 100% that person's fault to live and die poor".
Bill Gates also created his own monopoly to rip off all of his customers,
destroy his competition, and make himself rich by blaming poor people who
had no power to fight back.

Now
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
apply that to ranting and raving Americans like you.
Considering that India, and Indians in India have gotten a free ride to
jobs and a growing economy not through their own efforts but the gifts
from US CEOs and the manipulated Indian currency, controled by India, to
benefit itself, I'd like to know when YOU Indians are going to be thankful
to the west for your recent decade or slightly more of large GDP growth.
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
Do you agree asshole Art Sowers.
How about we also look some more at how India/Indians cheat the rest of
the world.... Mr. Asshole Jack Welch.

-----------------------

Quotes of a letter to the editor, Wall Street Journal, July 17, 2007, page
A15:

title: "Brazil, India Walked Away From Superb Opportunity"

from part of second paragraph:

"In agriculture, the disparities in the current level of protection are
even more striking, but India has not been willing to reduce that
protection even modestly. The US average agricultural tariff is 12%, while
the global average is 62% and India's is a remarkable 114%."

Other parts of the letter dealt with Brazil, another holdout on the Doha
round of WTO talks.

Letter signed by

Peter F. Allgeier, US Ambassador to the WTO, Geneva
Poetic Justice
2009-12-05 18:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
Yeah, if you guys are so smart, why aren't you rich?
You just nailed the reason so many *eggheads are Socialists* , they
think they are smart and surely "they" should also be rich and when they
realize they haven't achieved greatness in a Capitalist market, they
decide it is obviously flawed and all the fault of Capitalism that they
are *NOT* super wealthy and successful, otherwise they'd be as rich as
they are educated. There is no Formula to success in a Capitalist
system.... try as they might the educated are still on an equal playing
field with the uneducated when it comes to capitalism. The educated
feel they are pre-ordained to a better life than the uneducated, that's
what we teach each other. Look at the Harvard Professor friend of Obama
and how he expected elite treatment for his education, when in fact a
bigger fool has rarely been seen.

Like Cancer has carcinogens, Marxism has it's Carcinogens and it looks
as if education is just that. The more educational system exposure, the
greater the increase in incidents of Marxism.


I always wondered why the colleges are so full of Marxists? It's a home
for "educated idiots". *Now we know who Obama is*
Me, ...again!
2009-12-06 20:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Poetic Justice
Post by s***@italianmafia.com
says...
Post by Me, ...again!
Yeah, if you guys are so smart, why aren't you rich?
You just nailed the reason so many *eggheads are Socialists* ,
Well, I just stated a cliche. Same one gets thrown at me from time to
time.

One of my answers is that: "Well, since I'm not so rich, therefore I can't
be smar" which is a logical variation on another theme: "If you are rich,
then you must be smart" and most people seem to very easily buy into that
line.

So, except for below, we can really just end the debate right now, OK?

(but see below)

they
Post by Poetic Justice
think they are smart and surely "they" should also be rich and when they
realize they haven't achieved greatness in a Capitalist market, they
decide it is obviously flawed and all the fault of Capitalism that they
are *NOT* super wealthy and successful, otherwise they'd be as rich as
they are educated. There is no Formula to success in a Capitalist
system....
Well, one book I would recommend that you read is Josephson's book "The
Robber Barrons." It sure documented the "formula" to success (i.e. getting
rich) for me.

You might also look into the books on Enron, Worldcom, etc., and all those
nice big fat bonuses the fat cats in our financial businesses got even
when their financial strategies fucked up big-time last year, but I'd call
them "masters of formulas to success in a capitalist system".

And, you can read about the "nobles" of 2000 years ago, or other
"rich/powerful" types in all the societies of the world. They knew how to
get their hands on money and power and keep it (and keep the poor as poor
as possible).

try as they might the educated are still on an equal playing
Post by Poetic Justice
field with the uneducated when it comes to capitalism.
When Steve Forbes comes out every year with his list (in Forbes magazine)
of the richest people in the world/USA, they find that 1/4 get rich only
by inheritance (unearned income) and 2/3 only have a BS degree from
college, it suggests that education is not a strong correlator with making
money.

The educated
Post by Poetic Justice
feel they are pre-ordained to a better life than the uneducated, that's
what we teach each other.
If you look at doctors' and lawyers' average income, and any national
grass roots attempts to get that under control, I get the impression that
these two classes of worker definitely feel they are pre-ordained to a
better life than the rest of us trailor-trash and white-trash.

Look at the Harvard Professor friend of Obama
Post by Poetic Justice
and how he expected elite treatment for his education, when in fact a
bigger fool has rarely been seen.
Which one are you talking about? Henry Gates? I think if I were Henry
Gates, I'd be insulted by how I was treated. And, if I were the cop, I'd
feel like I was doing my job. Since, in the end, they both got some free
beer at the Whitehouse (I would not turn that offer down, either), maybe
all sides could benefit by soaking their heads (and cool off)?
Post by Poetic Justice
Like Cancer has carcinogens, Marxism has it's Carcinogens
You would, more propertly, be better off calling them _Marxinogens_.

and it looks
Post by Poetic Justice
as if education is just that. The more educational system exposure, the
greater the increase in incidents of Marxism.
Most of our schools graduate people who are looking for a job, keeping up
with peer pressure to go to college even though they don't know what they
really want, or --in the case of B-school, MBA programs, or law/med
pursuits--really want to make a lot of money and are uninterested in any
form of utopian society.

There are only two colleges in the USA that are traditionally left-wing:
Antioch and Oberlin. You have my permission to advise anyone who will
listen to you to not go to those places (and not donate any money to their
development funds).
Post by Poetic Justice
I always wondered why the colleges are so full of Marxists?
I think if you go around and actually poll ALL (or a meaningful random
sample) you will find that most don't even know who Marx was, and
considering how materialist US society is, very few would give up home
ownership, SUV/car ownership, electronic trinkets like iPods/iJunk, and
soda pop, etc., so they could live under a totalitarian dictatorship.

It's a home
Post by Poetic Justice
for "educated idiots". *Now we know who Obama is*
You would prefer more of the likes of Dick Cheney, maybe? Where the
redistribution of wealth means bid-free easy lucrative contracts
pre-directed to the Haliburton Corporation? With the source being us
taxpayers?

kamal
2009-12-05 12:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy to understand
that they were not parasites. A person who works for $10 illegally
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
That's rather specious logic.  The fellow making $10 an hour cannot
contribute the additional $40 to the economy; he will never have it.  As
To understand what I am saying, you need to understand trade-able
goods & services. The dollar bill in your hand is not real wealth. It
is a promisory note or a medium of exchanging trade-able goods/
services within an economy. It doesn't cost Bernanke anything to
manufacture those promisory notes -and it isn't his idea either (but
that of ancient egyptians 5000 yrs back). The amount of trade-able
goods & services a promisory note buys s the purchasing power of a
currency. When you bring in captive labour and make that person work
for $10 the equivalent of what it takes $50 to get the same work done
from a citizen, the person contributes $40 worth of trade-able goods
and services to the local economy (where the currency is in
circulation).
The flaw in your theory is that the fellow who earns only $10 per hour
does not earn enough to buy the goods he manufactures.
captive labour does not form a suitable customer base -yes. The
economy imports captive labour to satisfy the demands of an existing
customer base -so that they can deliver cheaper goods/services within
the citizenry's budgetary constraints. The hispanic labour that does
trash-cleaning in california provides cheaper services to the
citizenry and not to fellow mexicans.
Post by Bama Brian
And then there are all the off-shore factories, where no American works
and can not earn any money at all with which to buy goods.
Or do you somehow think that burger flippers and store clerks make good
wages?
yeah -that is where things like comparative advantage/monetary policy
etc come into the picture. Because of the US govt's monetary polcy -
the economy has shed jobs (as in entire industries) to cheaper
locations and the idled manpower re-trains itself for other higher-
valued jobs. In order for you to have a higher std of living than
anybody else, you need to generate higher-value goods/services than
anybody else.
Unfortunately, those 'higher-valued' jobs are also being offshored.
yes -so you need to move even higher than that offshored, or change
monetary policy to retain jobs which can be done elsewhere. The way it
works, you can command a premium on your labour only if it cannot be
done elsewhere. US govt monetary policy is to command a premium for
work done in USA so that they can pay for their import bill.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
to the $40 which he did not earn, where do you think it gets
contributed?  If I'm hearing you correctly, you think it will only land
in some robber baron's pocket, a meme which is not true and has never
been true.
the contribution of extra trade-able goods/services goes to anyone
with the currency to buy them. The robber baron/plantation farmer/
business owner is the first one to buy those services -and then he
sells the same for a profit to other consumers within the local
economy (or outside). Things like cost of construction, garbage
removal etc.. have come down crashing in the US thanks to captive
labour from mexico.  
BZZZT!  Wrong!  If I buy an item for $1,000 and wish to make a profit on
it by selling it to someone else, then that person must have at least
$1,000 plus whatever margins I must add to it in order to stay in biz.
Now where is that person going to get that $1,000 plus?  Not from a
'slave labor' job.  Even the most addled of CEO's acknowledges that he
must understand his customer base in order to stay in biz, and they all
know that their factory workers are going to be a part of that customer
base.
I have answered your question already.
The higher valued jobs are being offshored.  In any case, they represent
only the top ten percent of all jobs.  IOW, there aren't enough doctor,
lawyer, or titan of industry jobs to go around.  Nor are there enough
would-be employees with the ambition, or the brains, or even the
education to fill these positions.
I believe there are. An avg doctor makes something like $250000 per
annum in the USA. That means, lots of unemployed people with brains
can fill the demand till wages for doctors drop to that of s/w
engineers.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Yes, there are lots of Mexicans working construction.  Many of them do
fine work; many do not.  But they are not regulated, do not have to
learn all the basics necessary to become a union journeyman, and so on.
  Which means that a contractor needs to choose his laborers carefully
lest he find himself in court for negligence and outright fraud when his
building falls apart.
 Comparative advantage  dictates that a contractor who trains cheap/
captive labour to do the same job as free/expensive labour will
benefit in the long term.
Nobody in their right mind trains employees that will not stay put.
that is besides the pt. Read up on law of comparative advantage and
why it has prevailed for so many centuries.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
The main characteristic that the Mexicans bring to the building trade is
their willingness to work and to do what they are told, unlike so many
native-born Americans.
which is why they are brought in by businesses in the first place. If
you do not want them to over-populate your country, the solution is to
make it an offence to offer employment to such people rather than
erecting a southern fence.
It already is, in most jurisdictions.
I don't think so. Do you know of any business owner who has been
incarcerated/prosecuted for hiring illegals? Name just one if you can.
The only prosecution is to penalize them for not checking their papers
with a fine. Prosecuting business owners would require a change in US
law to make it an offence to use services of illegals. Some yrs back
walmart was rauded for illegals in s. calif and only the illegals were
prosecuted and no case was ever filed against walmart. The law to file
a case against walmart doesn't exist.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
The agricultural produce that would have to
compete in the international market and would have found it difficult
to do so with american worker' wages as input became cometitive thanks
to captive farm hands from mexico and other poor countries.
That is true, and it entirely depends on the willingness of the
Americans to work at back-breaking labor for low wages.  Here, you have
a point, although the bracero programs are quite legal.  Mind you, the
Mexicans who do this sort of work are glad to have it, even if they are
sent back to Mexico at the end of the season.
they are just caught between the devil and the deep sea. The deep sea
being their dysfunctional economy -and no prizes for guessing who the
devil is:-).
If you'd like to bash the US openly, go right ahead.  But that will open
the door for me to bash India openly.  We can then end the series by
calling each other names, once we have inflamed each other's passions.
Im just stating the facts -which is that you do want the illegals to
stay, but on restricted rights. The politicians/employers want them to
stay -but under threat of deportation.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
I also
remember reading that disk drives were uneconomical to manufacture at
IBM in the 1970s-80s, but with the arrival of boat people aka refugees
from the vietnam war, the economics changed bringing about the
personal computer revolution.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the PC revolution.  Consumer
demand was king in those days, especially when the PC seemed to bring so
many answers to so many problems.  Today, of course, the computer
No -PCs were unaffordable to most consumers up until a certain pt of
time, when IBM hit the sweet spot -by hiring the war refugees to work
on disk drives. Most of the work was done not in Armonk, NY but in
california (s. of san jose). These is also a court case pending/filed
against IBM in san jose, for exposing workers to cancerous chemicals.
Heh!  Oh, THAT factory!  IBM couldn't manufacture anything there cheaply
enough, no matter what they manufactured.  The factory was established
back in the 50's, long before the flood of Vietnamese immigrants.  IIRC,
the factory was ultimately sold to Hitachi, along with all of IBM's HDD
technology.  BTW, the lawsuit you refer to was brought because a
statistically significant sample of women in the area of the factory
were having problems with their pregnancies.  Yet California
investigated the birth anomalies and could find no direct link to the
IBM facility.  AFAIK, IBM has won one of the original suits, although
there may yet be another suit.
You didn't get your facts right. The workers exposed included men who
obviously, couldn't get pregnant.
Post by Bama Brian
Note that IBM also sold off its remaining laptop biz to Lenovo.  PC's
have become too commoditized, with margins being too razor-thin, while
IBM's biz model has become that of selling services instead of hardware.
Just FYI, I had two Vietnamese working in my group; they never had cause
to complain about their pay.
yes -as people get naturalized, their wages rise as comparedf to when
they land.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
revolution embraces everything from toothbrushes to televisions to
automobiles to PC's.
But it was the economies of scale and the extremely rapid pace of
technology that brought about this revolution - and not some IBM factory
up in Armonk, NY.
First part is correct, but to get to economies of scale -you need to
be able to deliver the product at the right price -which again
requires that either technology advances or that you find a way to get
ridiculously cheap labour. The refugees of the vietnam war provided
the 2nd because of their socio-economic condition.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
In any case, most factories are now offshore, where whatever salary that
is paid is only a fraction of that $10.  The only people who benefit
from this are the accountants, and the CEO's who respond only to their
Boards of Directors and their voting shareholders.
and how will the benefit from cheap labour if they cannot sell the
produce to americans? Americans love the benefits of cheaper
goods.available at walmart/discount retailers by paying 1$/day or less
to 3rd world workers, about the same way they loved the cheaper cars
produced by post-war poverty stricken japanese workforce.
I have made that same argument for the last twenty years; yet when you
have every existing president, past and present, all lined up to push
the benefits of NAFTA on the US, I became a voice crying in the wilderness.
You may want to look at what these countries get in return for selling
you all those cheap electronics/cars etc.. Its not real gold -but
funny money that costs nothing more than a few watts and paper pulp to
print.
Maybe.  But it has value, which can be exchanged for goods, as you
pointed out earlier.
Further, with no backing to the dollar and the fedgov running the
printing presses overtime, even the retirees no longer have enough money.
It's called government created inflation, with recent examples being
Brazil and Zimbabwe.
yep -that is where you are headed.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
The US is not benefiting from the off-shore factories.  Indeed, the US
economy is poised to completely crash from a number of decisions made by
wrong-headed politicians who could not see beyond the bribes they were
offered.
yes- the monetray policy is not eternally sustainable and there is a
lot of corruption wherein investment bankers rather than public
admiistrators dictate monetary policy.
Post by Bama Brian
But there's no such thing as 'slave labor' in American factories, or in
programming factories like Microsoft, or anywhere else for that matter.
  All who work receive a wage for what they do.  If they don't like it
even the slaves shipped to africa did get a wage -so that doesn't mean
they weren't enslaved.
Better look up the definition of a slave.  Slaves are NOT paid salaries
and are held in bondage at the point of a gun.
ask the H1bs/illegals -they will tell you that this is old wine in new
bottle.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
I may also note that when they were netteed -
they weren't exactly living in paradise. Labour is captive if it is
not free to take up other jobs for any reason and/or cannot command a
market-driven wage for its services the way local populace can. Each
and every visa holder whose visa is issued to employer is captive to
the employer. If you don't believe me -ask a practising lawyer within
your own country. And needless to say, all illegals are captive and
under threat of deportation should they crib.
Er, no.
Post by kamal
,
Post by Bama Brian
they could perhaps emulate the young bracero who decided he didn't like
stoop labor, found ways to get through college and med school, and is
today a respected neurosurgeon here in the US.  Or, if they find the job
and the salary too onerous they could go find another job.  Or they
could simply go home.
entering is easier than going back. Best way to ensure you don't fall
prey to human trafficking is not to enter under restricted rights.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert.  If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged.  But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are -unless they have capital to utilize
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.
In the case of those who come here on a work visa, yes, the companies
lobby for them.  Not so much because they are cheaper to hire - they're
not, especially after their first job change.  And here I speak as a
US govt has legal provisions in place to ensure that all visa holders
are captive to their sponsor.
BZZZT!  Wrong!  Strange how so many visa holders manage to stay here in
the US, working for various companies in long careers.  I've even seen
some who started their own companies and became rich.
they do need to pay a price by working for their green card.
Nothing of value on this planet comes for free.  Everything requires
work or some other sacrifice.  You expect me to bleed for those poor,
poor green card holders who had to work hard to come here?
i didn't have to work for my citizenship in india -so why should I do
so elsewhere?
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
former Silicon Valley hiring manager.  Instead, companies want them and
hire them because competent home-grown employees are very hard to find.
for the right price -yes.
I was willing to offer six-figure salaries, but could not find Americans
to do the jobs.  Instead, I offered six-figure salaries to a surprising
number of visa holders, immigrants, and the children of immigrants.
but you yourself said above that if work is shipped overseads(which it
already has), how will people who don't make $1000 buy a $1000 product
manufactured with cheap labour. Are you saying that most americans
will refuse a 6-figure salary? Check with IEEE USA, they will tell you
that they have hordes dying to work for 1/2 that amount.
Odd that they can't find work...maybe it's because the factories were
moved offshore, in an effort to find VERY cheap labor?  Even engineers
are counted as labor, BTW.  We don't need manufacturing engineers when
the factory is offshore.  We don't need design engineers when offshore
designers can use CAD/CAM processes.
When we don't have factories, we don't need expensive maintenance
people.  We don't need factory workers.  We don't need factory
accountants.  We don't need process engineers.  We don't need mechanical
engineers or EE's.  We don't need expensive equipment purchased from
suppliers, so the suppliers don't need salesmen, R&D, or factories
themselves.
It is getting to the point that we don't need MD's to read X-rays, since
they can be e-mailed offshore and the diagnoses e-mailed back.  An
entire industry is springing up offshore, where Americans who need
expensive surgery can go to a hospital in another country, get the work
done, and have a vacation of sorts, all much more cheaply than having
the work done here.
Soon we won't need as many surgeons.
We don't need law clerks doing research; instead the briefs can be
e-mailed offshore.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
  This is a fault of the Amurrican public skool sistim, and the cultural
imfassis on being a rock star or sports hero, or even winning the lottery.
not exactly. Just to be clear, neither is the education system great
in India -nor do people have different aspirations about getting rich
quick than americans do. If getting the right talent is what you are
looking for, then you should be sponsoring visas for people from
technologically advanced countries. But then, it is going to cost more
to do so than to hire local manpower. Which explains why valuable
talent always comes in from poverty-stricken 3rd world countries.
I offered six-figure salaries for anyone who was qualified.  And that
was ten to twenty years ago.
But educated Americans with EE's were few and far between, despite
having huge student populations at the University of California,
Stanford, and even San Jose State.
you need to check with the workers' unions and they will tell you they
have a hard time finding jobs. I have myself worked for the Indian
offices of american companies to where the work was offshored, and I
know for a fact that they weren't happy to lose their jobs as in
couldn't find anything close to what they were making.
You are making my points for me.  It's not that the Americans are
replaced with slave labor in America; it is that the American jobs have
moved offshore where the labor is extremely cheap.
no -I am just stating the facts.
Post by Bama Brian
Now whether or not you call the offshore employers 'slaveholders' is
entirely your own issue, and none of the US's.
they cannot be -because they do not hold the legal papers of the
employees here. Whether I lose my job or not -my employer cannot get
me prosecuted. My legal status is not a function of employers
discretion.
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Having said that, a surprising number of job visa employees are as
incompetent as any American dummy, credentialed or not.  But we don't
know this until they have burrowed into a company where it is difficult
to fire them.
they are as good or as bad (or as human) as people from any other
country. Further, there is no foreign manpower that a country cannot
do without. If you don't like someone in your country, best thing is
to not let them in.
Heh!  I suppose we could shut the borders completely; certainly the US
now has far too many people in it and now runs the risk of becoming
That would be great -but shutting down the borders has not worked to
date. They must have tried all kinds of things along the southern
border and it just didn't deter people from trying all kinds of things
just to gate-crash into the US and improve thier chances of living.
One such thing was to cross the forbidden desert and some died of
thirst in that process -another was to come by raft across the florida
straits and many drowned during that process. If you really want to
control the inflow of foreigners, you need to prosecute employers for
employing them. Without the prospect of finding jobs, none of these
foreigners will risk gate-crashing into the US (about the same way
none of them will bother to settle down in s.w. usa or montana or
idaho).
Such employers are prosecuted when found.  As to the fate of the
illegals in the desert, well, ask yourself what would be their fate had
they stayed home.
i answerd you -choose between the devil and the deep sea.
Post by Bama Brian
Just FYI, the Cuban and Haitian would-be immigrants are being turned
away now.  Seems like Florida has more than enough people on the welfare
rolls.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
grossly overpopulated.  Certainly, you yourself know what an
overpopulated country looks like, since you are posting from India.
Poulation in India -just like in USA varies from region to region.
Cities are over-populated because they offer more jobs to the rural
folks. Overall -it is over-populated but that is not hard to explain
for a 5000 yr old habitat vs 500 yr old habitat for humans.
Is that a "duck and dodge" designed to deflect the idea that India is
the second most populous country on the planet, while the US is third?
We need less immigrants; you need more emigrants.  But we no longer need
or want yours.
no -its overpopulated, but not uniformly. And its also very poor.

regards
-kamal
Post by Bama Brian
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
Me, ...again!
2009-12-05 14:46:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
does not earn enough to buy the goods he manufactures.
captive labour does not form a suitable customer base -yes. The
economy imports captive labour to satisfy the demands of an existing
customer base -so that they can deliver cheaper goods/services within
the citizenry's budgetary constraints. The hispanic labour that does
trash-cleaning in california provides cheaper services to the
citizenry and not to fellow mexicans.
Post by Bama Brian
And then there are all the off-shore factories, where no American works
and can not earn any money at all with which to buy goods.
Or do you somehow think that burger flippers and store clerks make good
wages?
yeah -that is where things like comparative advantage/monetary policy
etc come into the picture. Because of the US govt's monetary polcy -
the economy has shed jobs (as in entire industries) to cheaper
locations and the idled manpower re-trains itself for other higher-
valued jobs. In order for you to have a higher std of living than
anybody else, you need to generate higher-value goods/services than
anybody else.
Unfortunately, those 'higher-valued' jobs are also being offshored.
yes -so you need to move even higher than that offshored,
As I've told you dozens of times over the last many years, there are
limited numbers of jobs at "even higher than that offshored."

or change
Post by kamal
monetary policy to retain jobs which can be done elsewhere.
I would be happy if the US devalued its currency, OR put tariffs on all
incoming cheap labor products until our trade deficit diminished.

And, all cheap labor countries generate jobs for their own people without
the free giveaway from the USA.

The way it
Post by kamal
works, you can command a premium on your labour only if it cannot be
done elsewhere.
It all depends on the tricks of international trade where a country like
India/China can devalue its currency, unilaterally, and guarantee that
business will flow to it.

US govt monetary policy is to command a premium for
Post by kamal
work done in USA so that they can pay for their import bill.
Foreigners have been stealing US IP and US jobs for decades now.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Now where is that person going to get that $1,000 plus?  Not from a
'slave labor' job.  Even the most addled of CEO's acknowledges that he
must understand his customer base in order to stay in biz, and they all
know that their factory workers are going to be a part of that customer
base.
I have answered your question already.
The higher valued jobs are being offshored.  In any case, they represent
only the top ten percent of all jobs.  IOW, there aren't enough doctor,
lawyer, or titan of industry jobs to go around.  Nor are there enough
would-be employees with the ambition, or the brains, or even the
education to fill these positions.
I believe there are.
Wrong.

An avg doctor makes something like $250000 per
Post by kamal
annum in the USA. That means, lots of unemployed people with brains
can fill the demand till wages for doctors drop to that of s/w
engineers.
The doctors would not stay in business since they worked hard for their
degree and are usually in debt that takes a decade or more to work off.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
 Comparative advantage  dictates that a contractor who trains cheap/
captive labour to do the same job as free/expensive labour will
benefit in the long term.
Nobody in their right mind trains employees that will not stay put.
that is besides the pt.
No, his point is valid.

Read up on law of comparative advantage and
Post by kamal
why it has prevailed for so many centuries.
It is not a law. YOU should read, as I have, and most economics textbooks
call it a "theory" not a "law".

I've been telling you this for many years now and you still just don't get
it.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
which is why they are brought in by businesses in the first place. If
you do not want them to over-populate your country, the solution is to
make it an offence to offer employment to such people rather than
erecting a southern fence.
It already is, in most jurisdictions.
I don't think so. Do you know of any business owner who has been
incarcerated/prosecuted for hiring illegals?
I've told you many times now from articles in the WSJ that INS is having
raids on companies known to hire illegals, and the companies get fined,
and court actions against owners and managers, get prosecuted.
Post by kamal
Name just one if you can.
Tyco
Post by kamal
The only prosecution is to penalize them for not checking their papers
with a fine. Prosecuting business owners would require a change in US
law to make it an offence to use services of illegals.
No, the law was not enforced until recently.

Some yrs back
Post by kamal
walmart was rauded for illegals in s. calif and only the illegals were
prosecuted and no case was ever filed against walmart.
Walmart settled out of court. They can do that if they want.

The law to file
Post by kamal
a case against walmart doesn't exist.
Yes it does.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
That is true, and it entirely depends on the willingness of the
Americans to work at back-breaking labor for low wages.  Here, you have
a point, although the bracero programs are quite legal.  Mind you, the
Mexicans who do this sort of work are glad to have it, even if they are
sent back to Mexico at the end of the season.
they are just caught between the devil and the deep sea. The deep sea
being their dysfunctional economy -and no prizes for guessing who the
devil is:-).
If you'd like to bash the US openly, go right ahead.  But that will open
the door for me to bash India openly.  We can then end the series by
calling each other names, once we have inflamed each other's passions.
Im just stating the facts
You have been stating a biased argument and sellectively attacking US
policy, US society, "whites" in general, for years now and anyone who
takes the time to look in the archives can prove that for themselves.

But, India, with its Reserve Bank of India, and the Indian government, all
kinds of trade cheating has been carried out against rich countries, and
begging rich countries to let it get away with tricks, for years now.

-which is that you do want the illegals to
Post by kamal
stay, but on restricted rights. The politicians/employers want them to
stay -but under threat of deportation.
All because of greedy-selfish executives who care about nothing but making
their paychecks bigger. And, India is getting greedy-selfish executives
too.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
No -PCs were unaffordable to most consumers up until a certain pt of
time, when IBM hit the sweet spot -by hiring the war refugees to work
on disk drives. Most of the work was done not in Armonk, NY but in
california (s. of san jose). These is also a court case pending/filed
against IBM in san jose, for exposing workers to cancerous chemicals.
Heh!  Oh, THAT factory!  IBM couldn't manufacture anything there cheaply
enough, no matter what they manufactured.  The factory was established
back in the 50's, long before the flood of Vietnamese immigrants.  IIRC,
the factory was ultimately sold to Hitachi, along with all of IBM's HDD
technology.  BTW, the lawsuit you refer to was brought because a
statistically significant sample of women in the area of the factory
were having problems with their pregnancies.  Yet California
investigated the birth anomalies and could find no direct link to the
IBM facility.  AFAIK, IBM has won one of the original suits, although
there may yet be another suit.
You didn't get your facts right. The workers exposed included men who
obviously, couldn't get pregnant.
You did not cite a source for your claim that the other guy was wrong.

Therefore you cannot say he did not get his facts right.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Note that IBM also sold off its remaining laptop biz to Lenovo.  PC's
have become too commoditized, with margins being too razor-thin, while
IBM's biz model has become that of selling services instead of hardware.
Just FYI, I had two Vietnamese working in my group; they never had cause
to complain about their pay.
yes -as people get naturalized, their wages rise as comparedf to when
they land.
Only if they change jobs. Very rarely does any company raise pay just
because people become legal. They like to underpay anyone they can,and
keep them that way.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
You may want to look at what these countries get in return for selling
you all those cheap electronics/cars etc.. Its not real gold -but
funny money that costs nothing more than a few watts and paper pulp to
print.
Maybe.  But it has value, which can be exchanged for goods, as you
pointed out earlier.
Further, with no backing to the dollar and the fedgov running the
printing presses overtime, even the retirees no longer have enough money.
It's called government created inflation, with recent examples being
Brazil and Zimbabwe.
yep -that is where you are headed.
As if India does not print money and do the same thing, and already
articles in the media are reporting more inflation in India than in the
USA. Very bad for a poor country like India.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
But there's no such thing as 'slave labor' in American factories, or in
programming factories like Microsoft, or anywhere else for that matter.
  All who work receive a wage for what they do.  If they don't like it
even the slaves shipped to africa did get a wage -so that doesn't mean
they weren't enslaved.
Better look up the definition of a slave.  Slaves are NOT paid salaries
and are held in bondage at the point of a gun.
ask the H1bs/illegals -they will tell you that this is old wine in new
bottle.
Anyone can do a google search on "child slave" and "india" and find that
real slaves exist today, in large numbers, in the Indian rug factories in
India. Today.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
In the case of those who come here on a work visa, yes, the companies
lobby for them.  Not so much because they are cheaper to hire - they're
not, especially after their first job change.  And here I speak as a
US govt has legal provisions in place to ensure that all visa holders
are captive to their sponsor.
BZZZT!  Wrong!  Strange how so many visa holders manage to stay here in
the US, working for various companies in long careers.  I've even seen
some who started their own companies and became rich.
they do need to pay a price by working for their green card.
Nothing of value on this planet comes for free.  Everything requires
work or some other sacrifice.  You expect me to bleed for those poor,
poor green card holders who had to work hard to come here?
i didn't have to work for my citizenship in india -so why should I do
so elsewhere?
You were born in India, you were not born anywhere else. Citizens have
rights. Non-citizens have to work for rights.

Life in the USA is sought after because it is perceived to be better than
elsewhere.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
you need to check with the workers' unions and they will tell you they
have a hard time finding jobs. I have myself worked for the Indian
offices of american companies to where the work was offshored, and I
know for a fact that they weren't happy to lose their jobs as in
couldn't find anything close to what they were making.
You are making my points for me.  It's not that the Americans are
replaced with slave labor in America; it is that the American jobs have
moved offshore where the labor is extremely cheap.
no -I am just stating the facts.
So is he.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
That would be great -but shutting down the borders has not worked to
date. They must have tried all kinds of things along the southern
border and it just didn't deter people from trying all kinds of things
just to gate-crash into the US and improve thier chances of living.
One such thing was to cross the forbidden desert and some died of
thirst in that process -another was to come by raft across the florida
straits and many drowned during that process. If you really want to
control the inflow of foreigners, you need to prosecute employers for
employing them. Without the prospect of finding jobs, none of these
foreigners will risk gate-crashing into the US (about the same way
none of them will bother to settle down in s.w. usa or montana or
idaho).
Such employers are prosecuted when found.  As to the fate of the
illegals in the desert, well, ask yourself what would be their fate had
they stayed home.
i answerd you -choose between the devil and the deep sea.
Indians from India can stay in India. US jobs stay in the USA.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
grossly overpopulated.  Certainly, you yourself know what an
overpopulated country looks like, since you are posting from India.
Poulation in India -just like in USA varies from region to region.
Cities are over-populated because they offer more jobs to the rural
folks. Overall -it is over-populated but that is not hard to explain
for a 5000 yr old habitat vs 500 yr old habitat for humans.
Is that a "duck and dodge" designed to deflect the idea that India is
the second most populous country on the planet, while the US is third?
We need less immigrants; you need more emigrants.  But we no longer need
or want yours.
no -its overpopulated, but not uniformly. And its also very poor.
And, not the fault of "white" people, not the fault of the USA, and not
the fault of Europeans.
Post by kamal
regards
-kamal
Post by Bama Brian
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
Me, ...again!
2009-12-04 22:22:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy to understand
that they were not parasites. A person who works for $10 illegally
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
That's rather specious logic.  The fellow making $10 an hour cannot
contribute the additional $40 to the economy; he will never have it.  As
To understand what I am saying, you need to understand trade-able
goods & services. The dollar bill in your hand is not real wealth. It
is a promisory note or a medium of exchanging trade-able goods/
services within an economy. It doesn't cost Bernanke anything to
manufacture those promisory notes -and it isn't his idea either (but
that of ancient egyptians 5000 yrs back). The amount of trade-able
goods & services a promisory note buys s the purchasing power of a
currency. When you bring in captive labour and make that person work
for $10 the equivalent of what it takes $50 to get the same work done
from a citizen, the person contributes $40 worth of trade-able goods
and services to the local economy (where the currency is in
circulation).
The flaw in your theory is that the fellow who earns only $10 per hour
does not earn enough to buy the goods he manufactures.
captive labour does not form a suitable customer base -yes. The
economy imports captive labour to satisfy the demands of an existing
customer base -so that they can deliver cheaper goods/services within
the citizenry's budgetary constraints.
That is not the only reason. The other reason is that executives,
managers, and CEOs can save more money for their own paychecks.

The hispanic labour that does
Post by kamal
trash-cleaning in california provides cheaper services to the
citizenry and not to fellow mexicans.
Actually it does help fellow Mexicans since they can't find jobs in their
own country and that is why they are in the USA.

It also helps net profits anywhere that it cuts labor costs.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
And then there are all the off-shore factories, where no American works
and can not earn any money at all with which to buy goods.
Or do you somehow think that burger flippers and store clerks make good
wages?
yeah -that is where things like comparative advantage/monetary policy
etc come into the picture.
And, this includes how India's Reserve Bank of India, manipulates its
currency to be very cheap and that guarantees an inflow of business.
Post by kamal
Because of the US govt's monetary polcy -
Which has been a big giveaway to countries with cheap currency.
Post by kamal
the economy has shed jobs (as in entire industries) to cheaper
locations and the idled manpower re-trains itself for other higher-
valued jobs.
This is a big lie because the higher-value jobs are much lower in number.
There are not enough higher-value jobs for everyone who trains for them.

In order for you to have a higher std of living than
Post by kamal
anybody else, you need to generate higher-value goods/services than
anybody else.
This is another big misrepresentation of fact. Before 1970, the USA had
plenty of jobs for itself, plenty of "Made in USA", and no need for cheap
labor in 3rd world countries.

And, as a matter of additional fact, the USA is still the greatest
exporter in the world and will be for at least 1-2 decades until, and if,
China keeps growing.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
to the $40 which he did not earn, where do you think it gets
contributed?  If I'm hearing you correctly, you think it will only land
in some robber baron's pocket, a meme which is not true and has never
been true.
the contribution of extra trade-able goods/services goes to anyone
with the currency to buy them. The robber baron/plantation farmer/
business owner is the first one to buy those services -and then he
sells the same for a profit to other consumers within the local
economy (or outside). Things like cost of construction, garbage
removal etc.. have come down crashing in the US thanks to captive
labour from mexico.  
BZZZT!  Wrong!  If I buy an item for $1,000 and wish to make a profit on
it by selling it to someone else, then that person must have at least
$1,000 plus whatever margins I must add to it in order to stay in biz.
Now where is that person going to get that $1,000 plus?  Not from a
'slave labor' job.  Even the most addled of CEO's acknowledges that he
must understand his customer base in order to stay in biz, and they all
know that their factory workers are going to be a part of that customer
base.
I have answered your question already.
No you have not.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Yes, there are lots of Mexicans working construction.  Many of them do
fine work; many do not.  But they are not regulated, do not have to
learn all the basics necessary to become a union journeyman, and so on.
  Which means that a contractor needs to choose his laborers carefully
lest he find himself in court for negligence and outright fraud when his
building falls apart.
Comparative advantage dictates that a contractor who trains cheap/
captive labour to do the same job as free/expensive labour will
benefit in the long term.
It has nothing to do with comparative advantage and all to do with plain
"which is cheaper" lines of thinking.

And, furthermore, in the long term, all economic flows will spiral to the
bottom and hurt everyone.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
The main characteristic that the Mexicans bring to the building trade is
their willingness to work and to do what they are told, unlike so many
native-born Americans.
which is why they are brought in by businesses in the first place.
Yes, it is captive labor and it is wrong.

If
Post by kamal
you do not want them to over-populate your country, the solution is to
make it an offence to offer employment to such people
The INS is finding the illegals, now, and deporting them.

rather than
Post by kamal
erecting a southern fence.
The fence is already being built.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
The agricultural produce that would have to
compete in the international market and would have found it difficult
to do so with american worker' wages as input became cometitive thanks
to captive farm hands from mexico and other poor countries.
That is true, and it entirely depends on the willingness of the
Americans to work at back-breaking labor for low wages.  Here, you have
a point, although the bracero programs are quite legal.  Mind you, the
Mexicans who do this sort of work are glad to have it, even if they are
sent back to Mexico at the end of the season.
they are just caught between the devil and the deep sea. The deep sea
being their dysfunctional economy -and no prizes for guessing who the
devil is:-).
If it were not for your "US-devil" they would be worse off. And, even
India owes the USA a debt of gratitude for millions of US jobs stolen from
US people and rained down into India bringing many cities up into the
first world.

But, what does the USA get in return? Nothing but anti-American,
anti-white remarks from guys like you.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
I also
remember reading that disk drives were uneconomical to manufacture at
IBM in the 1970s-80s, but with the arrival of boat people aka refugees
from the vietnam war, the economics changed bringing about the
personal computer revolution.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the PC revolution.  Consumer
demand was king in those days, especially when the PC seemed to bring so
many answers to so many problems.  Today, of course, the computer
No -PCs were unaffordable to most consumers up until a certain pt of
time,
Wrong, they were selling like hot cakes right from the beginning.

when IBM hit the sweet spot -by hiring the war refugees to work
Post by kamal
on disk drives.
Wrong again. What made PCs explode was the AT architecture which IBM made
"open" and it almost destroyed Apple. Apple market share went way down.

Most of the work was done not in Armonk, NY but in
Post by kamal
california (s. of san jose).
Wrong, again. It was IBM that "made" the PC and all the follow-on
companies, big or small, expanded like crazy and also because Apple
architecture was not "open."

These is also a court case pending/filed
Post by kamal
against IBM in san jose, for exposing workers to cancerous chemicals.
What about Ranbaxy in India that still can't get FDA approvals for
Ranbaxy drugs to come to the USA?
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
revolution embraces everything from toothbrushes to televisions to
automobiles to PC's.
But it was the economies of scale and the extremely rapid pace of
technology that brought about this revolution - and not some IBM factory
up in Armonk, NY.
First part is correct, but to get to economies of scale -you need to
be able to deliver the product at the right price -which again
requires that either technology advances or that you find a way to get
ridiculously cheap labour.
IBM had the dominant PC technologyh at the time, and still had it for a
long time, and in some ways is still dominant (close to Intel, and AMD).

The refugees of the vietnam war provided
Post by kamal
the 2nd because of their socio-economic condition.
Cheap labor did not become a problem for the USA untill about 2000.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
In any case, most factories are now offshore, where whatever salary that
is paid is only a fraction of that $10.  The only people who benefit
from this are the accountants, and the CEO's who respond only to their
Boards of Directors and their voting shareholders.
and how will the benefit from cheap labour if they cannot sell the
produce to americans? Americans love the benefits of cheaper
goods.available at walmart/discount retailers by paying 1$/day or less
to 3rd world workers, about the same way they loved the cheaper cars
produced by post-war poverty stricken japanese workforce.
I have made that same argument for the last twenty years; yet when you
have every existing president, past and present, all lined up to push
the benefits of NAFTA on the US, I became a voice crying in the wilderness.
You may want to look at what these countries get in return for selling
you all those cheap electronics/cars etc..
They get jobs that their own countries could not generate.

Its not real gold -but
Post by kamal
funny money that costs nothing more than a few watts and paper pulp to
print.
And, India prints much much more worthless Rupees, on paper, than the USD
which is good anywhere in the world.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
The US is not benefiting from the off-shore factories.  Indeed, the US
economy is poised to completely crash from a number of decisions made by
wrong-headed politicians who could not see beyond the bribes they were
offered.
yes- the monetray policy is not eternally sustainable and there is a
lot of corruption wherein investment bankers rather than public
admiistrators dictate monetary policy.
Yes, corruption among our CEOs, and this is transfering to India, too,
with Satyam now on the hook for $2.6 billion USD in accounting fraud.
Where will it end?
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
But there's no such thing as 'slave labor' in American factories, or in
programming factories like Microsoft, or anywhere else for that matter.
  All who work receive a wage for what they do.  If they don't like it
even the slaves shipped to africa did get a wage
Which slaves were shipped to Africa?

-so that doesn't mean
Post by kamal
they weren't enslaved. I may also note that when they were netteed -
they weren't exactly living in paradise. Labour is captive if it is
not free to take up other jobs for any reason and/or cannot command a
market-driven wage for its services the way local populace can.
It is always free to go back where it came from where conditions are
usually worse.

Each
Post by kamal
and every visa holder whose visa is issued to employer is captive to
the employer.
Nobody is forcing them to take that choice.

If you don't believe me -ask a practising lawyer within
Post by kamal
your own country. And needless to say, all illegals are captive and
under threat of deportation should they crib.
They are totally free to go back where they came from.
Post by kamal
,
Post by Bama Brian
they could perhaps emulate the young bracero who decided he didn't like
stoop labor, found ways to get through college and med school, and is
today a respected neurosurgeon here in the US.  Or, if they find the job
and the salary too onerous they could go find another job.  Or they
could simply go home.
entering is easier than going back. Best way to ensure you don't fall
prey to human trafficking is not to enter under restricted rights.
Best way is to just stay home where you were born.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert.  If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged.  But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are -unless they have capital to utilize
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.
In the case of those who come here on a work visa, yes, the companies
lobby for them.  Not so much because they are cheaper to hire - they're
not, especially after their first job change.  And here I speak as a
US govt has legal provisions in place to ensure that all visa holders
are captive to their sponsor.
BZZZT!  Wrong!  Strange how so many visa holders manage to stay here in
the US, working for various companies in long careers.  I've even seen
some who started their own companies and became rich.
they do need to pay a price by working for their green card.
Better to have them just stay home.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
former Silicon Valley hiring manager.  Instead, companies want them and
hire them because competent home-grown employees are very hard to find.
for the right price -yes.
I was willing to offer six-figure salaries, but could not find Americans
to do the jobs.  Instead, I offered six-figure salaries to a surprising
number of visa holders, immigrants, and the children of immigrants.
but you yourself said above that if work is shipped overseads(which it
already has), how will people who don't make $1000 buy a $1000 product
manufactured with cheap labour.
How come you are switching sides in the argument and agreeing that the
long term effect of imported cheap labor is bad for the US and its people.

Are you saying that most americans
Post by kamal
will refuse a 6-figure salary? Check with IEEE USA, they will tell you
that they have hordes dying to work for 1/2 that amount.
Indians will die for work for 1/4 that amount because its still ten times
more than they will get in India, if they can even find work.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
  This is a fault of the Amurrican public skool sistim, and the cultural
imfassis on being a rock star or sports hero, or even winning the lottery.
not exactly. Just to be clear, neither is the education system great
in India -nor do people have different aspirations about getting rich
quick than americans do. If getting the right talent is what you are
looking for, then you should be sponsoring visas for people from
technologically advanced countries. But then, it is going to cost more
to do so than to hire local manpower. Which explains why valuable
talent always comes in from poverty-stricken 3rd world countries.
I offered six-figure salaries for anyone who was qualified.  And that
was ten to twenty years ago.
But educated Americans with EE's were few and far between, despite
having huge student populations at the University of California,
Stanford, and even San Jose State.
you need to check with the workers' unions and they will tell you they
have a hard time finding jobs. I have myself worked for the Indian
offices of american companies to where the work was offshored, and I
know for a fact that they weren't happy to lose their jobs as in
couldn't find anything close to what they were making.
Exactly my point.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
Post by kamal
Having said that, a surprising number of job visa employees are as
incompetent as any American dummy, credentialed or not.  But we don't
know this until they have burrowed into a company where it is difficult
to fire them.
they are as good or as bad (or as human) as people from any other
country. Further, there is no foreign manpower that a country cannot
do without. If you don't like someone in your country, best thing is
to not let them in.
Heh!  I suppose we could shut the borders completely; certainly the US
now has far too many people in it and now runs the risk of becoming
That would be great -but shutting down the borders has not worked to
date. They must have tried all kinds of things along the southern
border and it just didn't deter people from trying all kinds of things
just to gate-crash into the US and improve thier chances of living.
And, illegally, at the expense of the citizens.
Post by kamal
One such thing was to cross the forbidden desert and some died of
thirst in that process -another was to come by raft across the florida
straits and many drowned during that process. If you really want to
control the inflow of foreigners, you need to prosecute employers for
employing them.
This is already happening.

Without the prospect of finding jobs, none of these
Post by kamal
foreigners will risk gate-crashing into the US (about the same way
none of them will bother to settle down in s.w. usa or montana or
idaho).
No, they will come anyway.
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
grossly overpopulated.  Certainly, you yourself know what an
overpopulated country looks like, since you are posting from India.
Poulation in India -just like in USA varies from region to region.
Cities are over-populated because they offer more jobs to the rural
folks. Overall -it is over-populated but that is not hard to explain
for a 5000 yr old habitat vs 500 yr old habitat for humans.
Overpopulated because India can't make enough jobs for its own people so
they procreate instead.
Post by kamal
regards
-kamal
Post by Bama Brian
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Me, ...again!
2009-12-04 00:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
You need to look at how illegals benefit the US economy to understand
that they were not parasites. A person who works for $10 illegally
instead of $50 contributes $40 to the local economy instead of the guy
making $40 and paying $16.66 towards taxes.
That's rather specious logic.  The fellow making $10 an hour cannot
contribute the additional $40 to the economy; he will never have it.  As
To understand what I am saying, you need to understand trade-able
goods & services. The dollar bill in your hand is not real wealth.
75% of all business transactions in the world take place with payment
denominated in the USD. I can provide two refernces for that fact.

I've told you this before, too, and many times.

Seems like 3/4 of the world has no problem with that "paper"

Furthermore, nearly 15-20% of the rest of all business transactions in the
world are denominated in the Japanese Yen and the Euro.

In case you don't know it, both of those currencies are also "printed"
just like the USD.

It
Post by kamal
is a promisory note or a medium of exchanging trade-able goods/
services within an economy. It doesn't cost Bernanke anything to
manufacture those promisory notes -and it isn't his idea either (but
that of ancient egyptians 5000 yrs back). The amount of trade-able
goods & services a promisory note buys s the purchasing power of a
currency. When you bring in captive labour and make that person work
for $10 the equivalent of what it takes $50 to get the same work done
from a citizen, the person contributes $40 worth of trade-able goods
and services to the local economy (where the currency is in
circulation.
Yes, it basically cheats the low paid worker, but does NOT contribute to
local economy, but DOES contribute to CEO/rich obscene compensation
packages.

This is also very commonly understood by most people except YOU.
Post by kamal
to the $40 which he did not earn, where do you think it gets
contributed?  If I'm hearing you correctly, you think it will only land
in some robber baron's pocket, a meme which is not true and has never
been true.
the contribution of extra trade-able goods/services goes to anyone
with the currency to buy them. The robber baron/plantation farmer/
business owner is the first one to buy those services -and then he
sells the same for a profit to other consumers within the local
economy (or outside). Things like cost of construction, garbage
removal etc.. have come down crashing in the US thanks to captive
labour from mexico.
And, lots of low paid Indians on cheap visas or even Indians here
illegally.

The agricultural produce that would have to
Post by kamal
compete in the international market and would have found it difficult
to do so with american worker' wages as input became cometitive thanks
to captive farm hands from mexico and other poor countries.
This is also demonstrably untrue since it is known that American farming
is the most highly mechanized in the world, the most efficient, and under
large corporation control.

I also
Post by kamal
remember reading that disk drives were uneconomical to manufacture at
IBM in the 1970s-80s, but with the arrival of boat people aka refugees
from the vietnam war, the economics changed bringing about the
personal computer revolution.
Another misrepresentation. No disk drives are made in the USA anymore,
they are made in SE Asia (including Singapore and Malaysia) and China in
US and Japanese factories where they put "made in China" on the labels.
And, they only hire women to work in the assembly plants probably because
the women are more gentle and precise with their hands and can be further
exploited by paying them less than men.
Post by kamal
In any case, most factories are now offshore, where whatever salary that
is paid is only a fraction of that $10.  The only people who benefit
from this are the accountants, and the CEO's who respond only to their
Boards of Directors and their voting shareholders.
and how will the benefit from cheap labour if they cannot sell the
produce to americans?
Because the USD is strong, and their own currency is weak.

Americans love the benefits of cheaper
Post by kamal
goods.available at walmart/discount retailers by paying 1$/day or less
to 3rd world workers, about the same way they loved the cheaper cars
produced by post-war poverty stricken japanese workforce.
3rd world, including India, should be very happy that millions of jobs
have been taken out of the USA and rained into 3rd world countries that
can't make jobs on their own for their own people.
Post by kamal
Post by kamal
Post by Bama Brian
There are still vast areas in the American Southwest where little exists
but desert.  If the illegal immigrants wanted to build communities out
there, much as the Mormons did, perhaps it could be arranged.  But then,
the same thought applies to Mexico having vast, unused areas.
people go to where the jobs are -unless they have capital to utilize
natural resources and create jobs for themselves. You are missing the
pt that they did not gate crash because they wanted to break the law -
but because the govt machinery arranged for them to gate crash with
the promise that their survival chances will improve if they gate
crash.
In the case of those who come here on a work visa, yes, the companies
lobby for them.  Not so much because they are cheaper to hire - they're
not, especially after their first job change.  And here I speak as a
US govt has legal provisions in place to ensure that all visa holders
are captive to their sponsor.
Yes.
Post by kamal
former Silicon Valley hiring manager.  Instead, companies want them and
hire them because competent home-grown employees are very hard to find.
for the right price -yes.
Yes.
Post by kamal
  This is a fault of the Amurrican public skool sistim, and the cultural
imfassis on being a rock star or sports hero, or even winning the lottery.
not exactly. Just to be clear,
You are neither clear no corretc.

neither is the education system great
Post by kamal
in India -nor do people have different aspirations about getting rich
quick than americans do. If getting the right talent is what you are
looking for, then you should be sponsoring visas for people from
technologically advanced countries. But then, it is going to cost more
to do so than to hire local manpower. Which explains why valuable
talent always comes in from poverty-stricken 3rd world countries.
It is all cheap labor from cheap currency countries.
Post by kamal
Having said that, a surprising number of job visa employees are as
incompetent as any American dummy, credentialed or not.  But we don't
know this until they have burrowed into a company where it is difficult
to fire them.
they are as good or as bad (or as human) as people from any other
country. Further, there is no foreign manpower that a country cannot
do without. If you don't like someone in your country, best thing is
to not let them in.
I'd like to see India stop cheating at trade....

How India Cheats.....

=============================

Quotes of a letter to the editor, Wall Street Journal, July 17, 2007, page
A15:

title: "Brazil, India Walked Away From Superb Opportunity"

from part of second paragraph:

"In agriculture, the disparities in the current level of protection are
even more striking, but India has not been willing to reduce that
protection even modestly. The US average agricultural tariff is 12%, while
the global average is 62% and India's is a remarkable 114%."

Other parts of the letter dealt with Brazil, another holdout on the Doha
round of WTO talks.

Letter signed by

Peter F. Allgeier, US Ambassador to the WTO, Geneva


///////////////////////////
Post by kamal
regards
-kamal
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
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