Discussion:
Meat from "Downed Animals"
(too old to reply)
Rita
2003-12-25 03:21:25 UTC
Permalink
I began reading about this mad cow thing today, and
wondered why a sick cow was sent to slaughter to be
processed for meat. The first info I read said that if the
cow could not walk, then it had to be checked for mad
cow disease but it did not say it would not be slaughtered
for meat to sell. So I was confused.

Then in the Washington Post I found:

Agriculture Department officials told a briefing the cow was culled from its
herd and slaughtered Dec. 9, after she became paralyzed, apparently as a result
of calving. Preliminary tests showed the cow, believed to about 5 years old, had
mad cow disease.

So was this meat processed and sold or not?

Then I read also:

Politically, Democrats jumped on Republicans who earlier this month removed from
a massive agriculture spending bill a ban on processing meat from "downed"
animals, those that are ill when they reach the plant. USDA officials have said
the Holstein in Washington state was a downer.

Now I ask the group, who among you wants to eat meat from "downed"
animals, those that are ill?

I want to know more about this. How common is this practice and is it
used with other animals than cows -- pork, lamb, etc.
Capitalist Pig
2003-12-25 10:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Why don't you browse the Internet for information like everyone else, Rita
you stupid cow.
Porky Pig
Post by Rita
I began reading about this mad cow thing today, and
wondered why a sick cow was sent to slaughter to be
processed for meat. The first info I read said that if the
cow could not walk, then it had to be checked for mad
cow disease but it did not say it would not be slaughtered
for meat to sell. So I was confused.
Agriculture Department officials told a briefing the cow was culled from its
herd and slaughtered Dec. 9, after she became paralyzed, apparently as a result
of calving. Preliminary tests showed the cow, believed to about 5 years old, had
mad cow disease.
So was this meat processed and sold or not?
Politically, Democrats jumped on Republicans who earlier this month removed from
a massive agriculture spending bill a ban on processing meat from "downed"
animals, those that are ill when they reach the plant. USDA officials have said
the Holstein in Washington state was a downer.
Now I ask the group, who among you wants to eat meat from "downed"
animals, those that are ill?
I want to know more about this. How common is this practice and is it
used with other animals than cows -- pork, lamb, etc.
Jim-Bob
2003-12-25 13:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Capitalist Pig
Why don't you browse the Internet for information like everyone else, Rita
you stupid cow.
Porky Pig
Too bad there isn't a Mad Pig Disease. Porky could be a pioneer.
Capitalist Pig
2003-12-25 16:14:08 UTC
Permalink
I AM a mad pig and I'm not going to take it any more!!!!!

Porkus Est
Post by Jim-Bob
Post by Capitalist Pig
Why don't you browse the Internet for information like everyone else, Rita
you stupid cow.
Porky Pig
Too bad there isn't a Mad Pig Disease. Porky could be a pioneer.
susan
2003-12-26 23:07:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Capitalist Pig
I AM a mad pig and I'm not going to take it any more!!!!!
Too funny
Gary James
2003-12-25 16:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rita
I began reading about this mad cow thing today, and
wondered why a sick cow was sent to slaughter to be
processed for meat. The first info I read said that if the
cow could not walk, then it had to be checked for mad
cow disease but it did not say it would not be slaughtered
for meat to sell. So I was confused.
This whole thing is beginning to worry me. I had never been afraid
of disease before but the USDA seems so lackadaisical about how they
handle sick animals it's beginning to bother me.

Back in the late 1960s and early 1970s I was close to people in the
cattle industry. In those years I had complete faith in the
system. Back then a "downer" cow didn't make it to the slaughter
house. If a cow could not walk onto and off of a truck then it was
ipso facto unfit for human consumption and was destroyed without
leaving the farm. They never got near the food supply. The way
they are talking about this mess is that they seem to only "spot"
check the herd so as to be more efficient. This attitude is crazy
and scary. Not just for mad cow disease but for thousands of other
bovine problems.

I have a sudden desire to turn vegetarian.

The more I think about Corporations who will buy clothes made by 6
year Brazilians, the more I realize those same people will buy a
shipment of Brazilian bovine carcasses without any thought, either.
Harry Thompson
2003-12-25 16:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rita
I began reading about this mad cow thing today, and
wondered why a sick cow was sent to slaughter to be
processed for meat. The first info I read said that if the
cow could not walk, then it had to be checked for mad
cow disease but it did not say it would not be slaughtered
for meat to sell. So I was confused.
Agriculture Department officials told a briefing the cow was culled from its
herd and slaughtered Dec. 9, after she became paralyzed, apparently as a result
of calving. Preliminary tests showed the cow, believed to about 5 years old, had
mad cow disease.
So was this meat processed and sold or not?
Politically, Democrats jumped on Republicans who earlier this month removed from
a massive agriculture spending bill a ban on processing meat from "downed"
animals, those that are ill when they reach the plant. USDA
officials have said
Post by Rita
the Holstein in Washington state was a downer.
Now I ask the group, who among you wants to eat meat from "downed"
animals, those that are ill?
I want to know more about this. How common is this practice and is it
used with other animals than cows -- pork, lamb, etc.
I don't know. But my guess is the practice is widespread. It's
repulsive
but if you think about it, the take of wild carnivores is often the
diseased
and helpless.

The problem, IMV, is inadequate testing for mad cow disease.

I read the NY Times article on this. It was based on the Agriculture
Dept
PR, and was "reassuring" in tone. Somehow I came away very
unreassured.

What I gathered, interpreting the article, is that testing for mad cow
disease
is spotty. Consumer groups have pressed for testing all downed cattle
for
the disease, but that was resisted by the beef industry and the Ag
Dept.
Let me say it if nobody else does, the Agriculture Department is a
government front for the agricultural industry -- it represents their
interests, NOT the citizen's. If anybody disagrees with me, please
speak up now.

Let me put it more strongly. Our political leaders have sold us
citizens
down the river. I would like to hear disagreements.

My guess is, mad cow disease has been present in the US for some
time. We just haven't noticed because our officials
scarcely test for it, and the disease's gestation in humans is years.
There must be a small number of people who contracted mad cow
disease several years ago, but we won't know it for some time yet.

Here is the article with Ag Dept "reassurances" that alarmed me:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/23/science/23WIRE-MADCOW.html


December 23, 2003
U.S. Discovers Its First Suspected Case of Mad Cow Disease
By MATTHEW L. WALD and ERIC LICHTBLAU

WASHINGTON, Dec. 23 - A sick cow slaughtered about two weeks ago near
Yakima, Wash., has tested positive for mad cow disease in early
laboratory
results, the first such case in the United States, the secretary of
agriculture said on Tuesday.

Agriculture officials are likely to announce as early as Wednesday a
voluntary recall on beef they hope to trace to the plants where the
cow was slaughtered and processed, said Dr. Elsa Murano, the under
secretary for food safety.

"We are considering if we need to take that step, but it's likely to
happen," Dr. Murano said in an interview.

Federal officials did not say where the meat is now, but the
agriculture
secretary, Ann M. Veneman, said that the meat supply was safe because
of
precautions taken over the last decade to keep the nerve tissue of
slaughtered beef out of the food supply. Only the brain, spinal cord
and related parts can spread the disease to humans, Ms. Veneman said,
and she added that she intended to serve beef to her family at
Christmas.

"This finding, while unfortunate, does not pose any kind of
significant
risk to the human food chain," she said at a news briefing here
tonight.

While agriculture officials urged the public not to overreact to the
discovery, Dr. W. Ron DeHaven, the chief veterinary officer for the
Agriculture Department, said: "This is certainly a big concern. We now
have evidence of a disease that we didn't have before in the U.S."

Agriculture officials and leaders of the beef industry were
particularly
concerned about the impact on domestic sales and beef exports. When a
single case of mad cow disease, known formally as bovine spongiform
encephalopathy, was found in Alberta, Canada, in May, a number of
countries,
including the United States, banned the import of Canadian beef. The
ban
has been eased somewhat, and beef imports, of boneless cuts and from
cattle younger than 30 months, have resumed.

No cases have turned up in people.

According to federal officials, the cow in the Washington case,
a Holstein, was traced back to a farm in Mabton, about 40 miles
southeast of Yakima. The farm has been quarantined, Dr. Veneman
said.

The sample was taken on Dec. 9, the same day the cow was slaughtered.
Inspectors took a sample because the cow was a "downer animal," which
Ms. Veneman said meant "non-ambulatory."

Nerve tissue from the cow was tested at a government laboratory in
Ames,
Iowa, establishing a "presumptive" diagnosis, she said, and a military
jet is flying a sample to a laboratory in England for a definitive
diagnosis.
No result is expected for several days, but the government was
proceeding
as if the finding was conclusive, she said.

The development is likely to be a serious blow for ranchers, feed-lot
operators and slaughterhouses. Shortly after the announcement, Japan
and South Korea announced that they were banning imports of American
beef. About 10 percent of American beef production is exported,
industry
officials say.

McDonald's and Wal-Mart Stores quickly said they did not believe they
had received meat from the animal.

And almost as soon as Ms. Veneman finished her news conference,
officials
of the National Cattlemen's Beef Association began a conference call
to
seek to reassure consumers. Terry Stokes, the chief executive officer
of
the group, referred to a "triple firewall" to prevent the introduction
or
spread of the disease.

Mr. Stokes said these safeguards consisted of testing animals that
arrive
at slaughterhouses unable to walk, forbidding imports of cattle and
bovine
products from countries where the disease is present, banning as food
for
cows material derived from cows. That is meant to prevent the transfer
of
aberrant proteins, called prions, which are believed to cause the
disease.

Investigators are still trying to determine how and when the cow was
processed.

"First we have to determine where the stuff went. That will determine
how big the recall is," with officials hoping to recall any Washington
beef that may have become mixed with and contaminated by the diseased
cow, Dr. Murano said.

Dr. Murano said it was possible that the contaminated beef had already
been distributed and eaten, but she said that even in that case she
did
not believe it posed a risk to consumers because the processed parts
did not include the tissue that has been shown to carry the disease.
Or the beef could have been frozen "and it may all be sitting in a
warehouse somewhere," she said.

Dr. Murano said she expected the recall to be a "Class 2," the middle
grade in the three-tiered system the U.S.D.A. uses to rank the
severity
of the health risk. "This is a voluntary thing out of an abundance of
caution," she said.

Despite the evident failure of the system to prevent the case
in Washington, Mr. Stokes said that consumers should have
confidence in the food supply, because there is no evidence
that the disease is transmissible through muslcle meat. Such a
reassurance is critical since Agriculture Department officials
said that meat from the infected animal, but not tissue from its
central nervous system, had been sent to at least two other
processing plants.

Critics say that the safeguards are not perfect. Among the problems,
they say, is that machines that strip meat scraps from carcasses can
contaminate the meat with tissue from the nervous system. Critics also
say that regulations to prevent contamination of cattle food with
nerve
tissue are unevenly enforced.

"We put a number of measures in place that we thought would
substantially reduce our chance of seeing mad cow disease in this
country, but clearly those methods fell short of perfect," said
Dr. Fred Cohen, a professor of pharmacology at the University of
California in San Francisco and a leading expert on ways to treat
prion diseases.

Still, Dr. Cohen said the risk was low.

"One can derive a fair bit of comfort from statistics and
epidemiology,"
he said. "Put the question into context. When there were 60,000 to
80,000
infected cows in the U.K., approximately 150 people out of 60 million
developed the disease," he said. "One cow is not likely to be
translated
into any cases" in the United States, he said.

The disease makes brain tissue spongy and full of holes. Sheep, deer
and elk can also get spongiform encephalopothies. The human form is
called Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, and kills about 250 Americans a
year.
In most cases the cause is unknown.

Agriculture inspectors at the slaughterhouse in Mabton learned of the
possibility of the disease when they tested the meat of a cow that had
been unable to walk, a symptom of mad cow disease. A fraction of all
cows in slaughterhouses that cannot walk on their own are tested for
the disease.

The possibility of an infected cow renewed calls to end the slaughter
of animals that cannot walk. Wayne Pacelle, the vice president of the
Humane Society of the United States, said that such animals are pushed
by bulldozers or dragged by chains, and are a threat to the food
supply.

He said that the Senate had approved an amendment to the Agriculture
Department's appropriations bill for the current fiscal year that
would
have forbidden such slaughter, but that the House had narrowly
defeated
it and a conference committee had left it out of the current version.
The bill is part of the omnibus appropriations bill that Congress will
face in January.

Ms. Veneman said in the news conference that her department had tested
20,526 head of cattle for mad cow disease this year, triple the level
of last year.

The diagnosis in Washington State came just a week after a federal
appeals court in New York resuscitated a lawsuit brought by an animal
rights group that believes the Agriculture Department has not done
enough to protect consumers from mad cow disease.

The group, Farm Sanctuary, maintained in a 1998 lawsuit that the
government's policy of allowing the slaughter of animals that cannot
walk poses a significant health risk to consumers. A judge threw out
the lawsuit, saying the danger was remote, but the Court of Appeals
for the Second Circuit overturned that decision last week and revived
the lawsuit.


Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company
Bob
2003-12-26 01:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Rita,

Not to worry too much about this one. But ...

First, this was a cow, not a steer. Cows are used for milking, and
reproduction, steers are used for beef we eat.

Second, and this is the one to be concerned with, in the US grinding up
dead cows for feed is illegal. It is cheap. So, what do you think
happens to the carcass of the dead cow? Feed for other animals,
including steers.

Makes chick'n look real good.

Bob
Post by Rita
I began reading about this mad cow thing today, and
wondered why a sick cow was sent to slaughter to be
processed for meat. The first info I read said that if the
cow could not walk, then it had to be checked for mad
cow disease but it did not say it would not be slaughtered
for meat to sell. So I was confused.
Agriculture Department officials told a briefing the cow was culled from its
herd and slaughtered Dec. 9, after she became paralyzed, apparently as a result
of calving. Preliminary tests showed the cow, believed to about 5 years old, had
mad cow disease.
So was this meat processed and sold or not?
Politically, Democrats jumped on Republicans who earlier this month removed from
a massive agriculture spending bill a ban on processing meat from "downed"
animals, those that are ill when they reach the plant. USDA officials have said
the Holstein in Washington state was a downer.
Now I ask the group, who among you wants to eat meat from "downed"
animals, those that are ill?
I want to know more about this. How common is this practice and is it
used with other animals than cows -- pork, lamb, etc.
--
In times of change, there is no incentive so great, and no
medicine so powerful as hope for a better tomorrow.
Rita
2003-12-26 05:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Rita,
Not to worry too much about this one. But ...
First, this was a cow, not a steer. Cows are used for milking, and
reproduction, steers are used for beef we eat.
Second, and this is the one to be concerned with, in the US grinding up
dead cows for feed is illegal. It is cheap. So, what do you think
happens to the carcass of the dead cow? Feed for other animals,
including steers.
Makes chick'n look real good.
Bob
Latest information is that the cow went into the food supply.

From the Washington Post:

Tests showing that the Washington state Holstein had mad cow disease took 13
days to complete. But meat from this Holstein was allowed "into the human food
chain," according to Bill Brookreson, deputy director at the Washington State
Department of Agriculture. Brookreson said yesterday investigators were still
trying to pin down whether any part of the infected cow had reached grocery
shelves. Officials ordered a recall on Wednesday of all 20 cows slaughtered at a
Moses Lake facility on Dec. 9, including the infected Holstein, but it is
unclear how far "downstream" the meat may have traveled in 15 days.
arthur wouk
2003-12-26 18:57:56 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@pobox.com>, Bob <***@pobox.com> wrote:
:Rita,
:
: Not to worry too much about this one. But ...
:
: First, this was a cow, not a steer. Cows are used for milking, and
:reproduction, steers are used for beef we eat.
:


nonsense. when they stop giving milk they are slaughtered fro food.
that was what this cow was doing.
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Bob
2003-12-26 19:13:04 UTC
Permalink
sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your newsreports are wrong. This
cow was a dairy cow. In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
meat but ground up for feed for other bovines. That is the scary part
of this that would lead to the disease spreading downstream quickly, as
it did in Great Britain.

Farmer Bob
Post by arthur wouk
:Rita,
: Not to worry too much about this one. But ...
: First, this was a cow, not a steer. Cows are used for milking, and
:reproduction, steers are used for beef we eat.
nonsense. when they stop giving milk they are slaughtered fro food.
that was what this cow was doing.
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others
to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
--
In times of change, there is no incentive so great, and no
medicine so powerful as hope for a better tomorrow.
Harry Thompson
2003-12-26 20:09:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your newsreports are wrong.
This
Post by Bob
cow was a dairy cow. In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
meat but ground up for feed for other bovines. That is the scary part
of this that would lead to the disease spreading downstream quickly, as
it did in Great Britain.
Farmer Bob
That was then, Farmer Bob. According to the NY Times this particular
cow "was tested within two weeks, but by then its muscle meat had
become food for humans and its spinal cord was sent to a plant that
makes food for pets, pigs and poultry."

Old dairy cows, this or another NY Times article says, wind up as
hamburger and pet food.

See
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/26/national/26CND-DETECT.html?pagewanted=1&hp

The quote is on the last page.

There has been a terrible relaxation of standards in favor of industry
and against the citizen since the good ol' days you remember.

God knows where that hamburger is, the Dept of Ag sure doesn't.

--
Hap
arthur wouk
2003-12-27 18:51:56 UTC
Permalink
this requires no comment. i have never eaten a fast-food hamburger on
grounds of taste (i accepted consumer reports on that). but i am
afraid that many mexican restaurants use the same meat products in their
food. i will stick to machado(sp?) beef in the future. i still trust
$7 and up hamburgers. eat colorado lamb! great stuff.

Expert Warned That Mad Cow Was Imminent

By SANDRA BLAKESLEE

E ver since he identified the bizarre brain-destroying proteins that
cause mad cow disease, Dr. Stanley Prusiner, a neurologist at the
University of California at San Francisco, has worried about whether
the meat supply in America is safe.

He spoke over the years of the need to increase testing and safety
measures. Then in May, a case of mad cow disease appeared in Canada,
and he quickly sought a meeting with Ann M. Veneman, the secretary of
agriculture. He was rebuffed, he said in an interview yesterday, until
he ran into Karl Rove, senior adviser to President Bush.

So six weeks ago, Dr. Prusiner, who won the 1997 Nobel Prize in
Medicine for his work on prions, entered Ms. Veneman's office with a
message. "I went to tell her that what happened in Canada was going to
happen in the United States," Dr. Prusiner said. "I told her it was
just a matter of time."

The department had been willfully blind to the threat, he said. The
only reason mad cow disease had not been found here, he said, is that
the department's animal inspection agency was testing too few animals.
Once more cows are tested, he added, "we'll be able to understand the
magnitude of our problem."

This nation should immediately start testing every cow that shows
signs of illness and eventually every single cow upon slaughter, he
said he told Ms. Veneman. Japan has such a program and is finding the
disease in young asymptomatic animals.

Fast, accurate and inexpensive tests are available, Dr. Prusiner said,
including one that he has patented through his university.

Ms. Veneman's response (he said she did not share his sense of
urgency) left him frustrated. That frustration soared this week after
a cow in Washington State was tentatively found to have the disease.
If the nation had increased testing and inspections, meat from that
cow might never have entered the food chain, he said.

Ms. Veneman was not available for interviews yesterday, and the White
House referred all questions to the department. A spokeswoman for Ms.
Veneman, Julie Quick, said: "We have met with many experts in this
area, including Dr. Prusiner. We welcome as much scientific input and
insight as we can get on this very important issue. We want to make
sure that our actions are based on the best available science."

In Dr. Prusiner's view, Ms. Veneman is getting poor scientific advice.
"U.S.D.A. scientists and veterinarians, who grew up learning about
viruses, have difficulty comprehending the novel concepts of prion
biology," he said. "They treat the disease as if it were an infection
that you can contain by quarantining animals on farms. It's as though
my work of the last 20 years did not exist."

Scientists have long been fascinated by a group of diseases, called
spongiform encephalopathies, that eat away at the brain, causing
madness and death. The leading theory was that they were caused by a
slow-acting virus. But in 1988, Dr. Prusiner proposed a theory that
seemed heretical at the time: the infectious agent was simply a type
of protein, which he called prions.

Prions (pronounced PREE-ons), he and others went on to establish, are
proteins that as a matter of course can misfold that is, fold
themselves into alternative shapes that have lethal properties and
cause a runaway reaction in nervous tissue. As more misfolded proteins
accumulate, they kill nerve cells.

Animals that eat infected tissues can contract the disease, setting
off an epidemic as animals eat each other via rendered meats. But
misfolded proteins can also arise spontaneously in cattle and other
animals, Dr. Prusiner said. It is not known whether meat from animals
with that form of the disease could pass the disease to humans, he
said, but it is a risk that greatly worries him.

Cattle with sporadic disease are probably entering the food chain in
the United States in small numbers, Dr. Prusiner and other experts
say.

Brain tissue from the newly discovered dairy cow in Washington is now
being tested in Britain to see if it matches prion strains that caused
the mad cow epidemic there, or if it is a homegrown American sporadic
strain, Dr. Prusiner said.

"The problem is we just don't know the size of the problem," he said.
"We don't know the prevalence or incidence of the disease."

The Japanese experience is instructive, Dr. Prusiner said. Three and a
half years ago, that country identified its first case of mad cow
disease. The government then said it would begin testing all cows
older than 30 months, as they do in Europe. Older animals presumably
have a greater chance of showing the disease, Dr. Prusiner said.

Japanese consumer groups protested and the government then said it
would test every cow upon slaughter, Dr. Prusiner said. The Japanese
have 4 million cattle and slaughter 1.2 million of them each year. The
United States has 100 million cattle and kills 35 million a year.

Early this fall, Japanese surveillance found two new cases of the
disease in young animals, aged 21 and 23 months. "Under no testing
regime except Japan would these cases ever be found," he said.

The 23-month-old cow tested borderline positive using two traditional
tests. But the surveillance team then looked in a different part of
the brain using an advanced research technique and found a huge signal
for infectious material, Dr. Prusiner said. It was a different strain
of the disease, possibly a sporadic case.

The only way to learn what the United States is facing is to test
every animal, Dr. Prusiner said. Existing methods, used widely in
Europe and Japan, grind up brain stem tissue and use an enzyme to
measure amounts of infectious prions. Animals must have lots of bad
prions to get a clear diagnosis.

Newer tests, by a variety of companies, are more sensitive, cheaper
and faster. Dr. Prusiner said that his test could even detect
extremely small amounts of infectious prion in very young animals with
no symptoms. Sold by InPro Biotechnology in South San Francisco, a
single testing operation could process 8,000 samples in 24 hours, he
said.

British health officials will start using the test in February, Dr.
Prusiner said. If adopted in this country, it would raise the price of
a pound of meat by two to three cents, he said.

"We want to keep prions out of the mouths of humans," Dr. Prusiner
said. "We don't know what they might be doing to us."

His laboratory is working on promising treatments for the human form
of mad cow disease but preventing its spread is just as important, he
said. "Science is capable of finding out how serious the problem is,"
he said, "but only government can mandate the solutions."

Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Alvin E. Toda
2003-12-27 19:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Thompson
Post by Bob
sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your
newsreports are wrong. This cow was a dairy cow.
In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
meat but ground up for feed for other bovines.
That is the scary part of this that would lead to
the disease spreading downstream quickly, as it did
in Great Britain.
Farmer Bob
That was then, Farmer Bob. According to the NY Times
this particular cow "was tested within two weeks, but
by then its muscle meat had become food for humans
and its spinal cord was sent to a plant that makes
food for pets, pigs and poultry."
Old dairy cows, this or another NY Times article
says, wind up as hamburger and pet food.
See
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/26/national/26CND-DETECT.html?pagewanted=1&hp
The quote is on the last page.
There has been a terrible relaxation of standards in
favor of industry and against the citizen since the
good ol' days you remember.
God knows where that hamburger is, the Dept of Ag
sure doesn't.
--
Hap
Scrarry thought: what if the other pets wind up as
protein in cattle food? This is getting out of hand...
GLC1173
2003-12-27 20:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Scrarry thought: what if the other pets >wind up as protein in cattle food?
Actually, pet food is probably the riskiest stuff you contact for mad cow
disease - as the dry "kibbles" are made by mixing byproducts from zillions of
livestock.


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Alvin E. Toda
2003-12-28 21:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by GLC1173
Actually, pet food is probably the riskiest stuff
you contact for mad cow disease - as the dry
"kibbles" are made by mixing byproducts from zillions
of livestock.
While it is true that the ancient Hawaiians ate dogs,
it is no longer considered OK to do so. However, many
Asian countries still do consume dogs. Tissue from
these diseased cows should not be consumed by any other
animal.

--alvin
Karl Sigerist Sr©
2003-12-29 08:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alvin E. Toda
Post by GLC1173
Actually, pet food is probably the riskiest stuff
you contact for mad cow disease - as the dry
"kibbles" are made by mixing byproducts from zillions
of livestock.
While it is true that the ancient Hawaiians ate dogs,
it is no longer considered OK to do so. However, many
Asian countries still do consume dogs. Tissue from
these diseased cows should not be consumed by any other
animal.
--alvin
I wonder what is done "at source" of the evil the guy who sells that
contaminated animal feed and the farmer who buys it and feeds it to
his cows must know what they are doing.

Being not a farmer I can very well imagine that a cow maybe
cost up to a thousand dollars, and when such animal get sick the
farmer wants to sell it as fast as possible to whomever.

The ear-tags for the animals are not fool proof I think a tattoo
would be less prone to tampering, I don't know much about
farming. but I know one thing for sure nobody wants to loose
money when it is avoidable.

I distrust meat more and more, I wonder what the hormones
which is fed to the animals will do to us humans in the long run
One thing I know for sure you can't trust the government, any government
and the by the government paid scientists
--
KarlSr©
arthur wouk
2003-12-27 18:54:39 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@pobox.com>, Bob <***@pobox.com> wrote:
:sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your newsreports are wrong. This
:cow was a dairy cow. In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
:meat but ground up for feed for other bovines. That is the scary part
:of this that would lead to the disease spreading downstream quickly, as
:it did in Great Britain.
:
:Farmer Bob
:

unfortunately for you and us, the DoA admits the meat was in the human food
chain. fasdt food hamburger doesn't care what the source is.
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Rita
2003-12-27 21:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by arthur wouk
:sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your newsreports are wrong. This
:cow was a dairy cow. In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
:meat but ground up for feed for other bovines. That is the scary part
:of this that would lead to the disease spreading downstream quickly, as
:it did in Great Britain.
:Farmer Bob
unfortunately for you and us, the DoA admits the meat was in the human food
chain. fasdt food hamburger doesn't care what the source is.
I read that people on the West Coast prefer beef from Holsteins, which
are dairy cattle. People in the East prefer Angus beef. Now I'm no
expert, this is all new sto me, but it seems dairy cattle are slaughtered for
meat in some parts of the country.
Glenn Pooler
2003-12-27 23:01:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:39:54 GMT, Rita
Post by Rita
Post by arthur wouk
:sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your newsreports are wrong. This
:cow was a dairy cow. In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
:meat but ground up for feed for other bovines. That is the scary part
:of this that would lead to the disease spreading downstream quickly, as
:it did in Great Britain.
:Farmer Bob
unfortunately for you and us, the DoA admits the meat was in the human food
chain. fasdt food hamburger doesn't care what the source is.
I read that people on the West Coast prefer beef from Holsteins, which
are dairy cattle. People in the East prefer Angus beef. Now I'm no
expert, this is all new sto me, but it seems dairy cattle are slaughtered for
meat in some parts of the country.
As near as I can determine, a Black Angus is no better than a
Hereford (considering the rule; the more in the ad budget, the
less in the product, maybe not as good) but the producers
apparently have a larger marketing budget. The only test of
beef, is in the eating, not in the selling. Best is out of Omaha
and Chicago, go from there if you need further refinement.

***@att.net
Rochester Minnesota USA
jim
2003-12-28 00:49:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:01:40 GMT Glenn Pooler Glenn Pooler
Post by Glenn Pooler
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:39:54 GMT, Rita
Post by Rita
Post by arthur wouk
:sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your newsreports are wrong. This
:cow was a dairy cow. In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
:meat but ground up for feed for other bovines. That is the scary part
:of this that would lead to the disease spreading downstream quickly, as
:it did in Great Britain.
:Farmer Bob
unfortunately for you and us, the DoA admits the meat was in the human food
chain. fasdt food hamburger doesn't care what the source is.
I read that people on the West Coast prefer beef from Holsteins, which
are dairy cattle. People in the East prefer Angus beef. Now I'm no
expert, this is all new sto me, but it seems dairy cattle are slaughtered for
meat in some parts of the country.
As near as I can determine, a Black Angus is no better than a
Hereford (considering the rule; the more in the ad budget, the
less in the product, maybe not as good) but the producers
apparently have a larger marketing budget. The only test of
beef, is in the eating, not in the selling. Best is out of Omaha
and Chicago, go from there if you need further refinement.
Rochester Minnesota USA
Angus has advantage in fat marbeling! Much better distribution then
herford.
Glenn Pooler
2003-12-28 01:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:01:40 GMT Glenn Pooler Glenn Pooler
Post by Glenn Pooler
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:39:54 GMT, Rita
Post by Rita
Post by arthur wouk
:sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your newsreports are wrong. This
:cow was a dairy cow. In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
:meat but ground up for feed for other bovines. That is the scary part
:of this that would lead to the disease spreading downstream quickly, as
:it did in Great Britain.
:Farmer Bob
unfortunately for you and us, the DoA admits the meat was in the human food
chain. fasdt food hamburger doesn't care what the source is.
I read that people on the West Coast prefer beef from Holsteins, which
are dairy cattle. People in the East prefer Angus beef. Now I'm no
expert, this is all new sto me, but it seems dairy cattle are slaughtered for
meat in some parts of the country.
As near as I can determine, a Black Angus is no better than a
Hereford (considering the rule; the more in the ad budget, the
less in the product, maybe not as good) but the producers
apparently have a larger marketing budget. The only test of
beef, is in the eating, not in the selling. Best is out of Omaha
and Chicago, go from there if you need further refinement.
Rochester Minnesota USA
Angus has advantage in fat marbeling! Much better distribution then
herford.
Wasn't that the old criteria before the new grading system
decided lean was good? Prime was well marbled, choice was
leaner, but now prime is leaner, fat is bad? That's the way it
appears at Target, the only major market here that has both USDA
prime and choice side by side. If so, this would explain the
marketing strategy of the out-of-work Black Angus producers.

***@att.net
Rochester Minnesota USA
Glenn Pooler
2003-12-28 02:05:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 01:28:46 GMT, Glenn Pooler
Post by Glenn Pooler
Post by jim
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:01:40 GMT Glenn Pooler Glenn Pooler
Post by Glenn Pooler
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:39:54 GMT, Rita
Post by Rita
Post by arthur wouk
:sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your newsreports are wrong. This
:cow was a dairy cow. In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
:meat but ground up for feed for other bovines. That is the scary part
:of this that would lead to the disease spreading downstream quickly, as
:it did in Great Britain.
:Farmer Bob
unfortunately for you and us, the DoA admits the meat was in the human food
chain. fasdt food hamburger doesn't care what the source is.
I read that people on the West Coast prefer beef from Holsteins, which
are dairy cattle. People in the East prefer Angus beef. Now I'm no
expert, this is all new sto me, but it seems dairy cattle are slaughtered for
meat in some parts of the country.
As near as I can determine, a Black Angus is no better than a
Hereford (considering the rule; the more in the ad budget, the
less in the product, maybe not as good) but the producers
apparently have a larger marketing budget. The only test of
beef, is in the eating, not in the selling. Best is out of Omaha
and Chicago, go from there if you need further refinement.
Rochester Minnesota USA
Angus has advantage in fat marbeling! Much better distribution then
herford.
Wasn't that the old criteria before the new grading system
decided lean was good? Prime was well marbled, choice was
leaner, but now prime is leaner, fat is bad? That's the way it
appears at Target, the only major market here that has both USDA
prime and choice side by side. If so, this would explain the
marketing strategy of the out-of-work Black Angus producers.
I take it back, I went to the USDA and other grading sites and
couldn't find the reduced marbling requirement that I thought had
been imposed. About twenty years ago there was a change in
grading to reflect reduced fat desirability, but there's no
evidence of it today.

***@att.net
Rochester Minnesota USA
arthur wouk
2003-12-28 02:46:56 UTC
Permalink
best beef is grass fed and properly aged. until you have eaten real
meat (not the corn-fed abominations popular in the us) you don't know
what beef tastes like.

had a near equal for dinner tonight. two friends and i went to a german
restaurant up in the mountains near boulder an dhad christmas goose
dinners. great beefy taste. too few people appreciate goose.
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Glenn Pooler
2003-12-28 13:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by arthur wouk
best beef is grass fed and properly aged. until you have eaten real
meat (not the corn-fed abominations popular in the us) you don't know
what beef tastes like.
had a near equal for dinner tonight. two friends and i went to a german
restaurant up in the mountains near boulder an dhad christmas goose
dinners. great beefy taste. too few people appreciate goose.
That's because one has to be French to cook it properly. ("beefy
taste" hoot!)

***@att.net
Rochester Minnesota USA
arthur wouk
2003-12-28 21:27:08 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>,
Glenn Pooler <***@att.net> wrote:
:On 27 Dec 2003 19:46:56 -0700, ***@blackhole.nyx.net (arthur
:wouk) wrote:
:
:>best beef is grass fed and properly aged. until you have eaten real
:>meat (not the corn-fed abominations popular in the us) you don't know
:>what beef tastes like.
:>
:>had a near equal for dinner tonight. two friends and i went to a german
:>restaurant up in the mountains near boulder an dhad christmas goose
:>dinners. great beefy taste. too few people appreciate goose.
:
:That's because one has to be French to cook it properly. ("beefy
:taste" hoot!)
:
:***@att.net
:Rochester Minnesota USA


french and german styles are a litle different. each has its merits.
we used to have a french restaurant which christmas goose (in denver),
but they are gone. helas! we used to eat at both!
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Gary James
2003-12-28 15:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by arthur wouk
best beef is grass fed and properly aged. until you have eaten real
meat (not the corn-fed abominations popular in the us) you don't know
what beef tastes like.
Walking and nibbling grass produces muscle. Standing still and
eating a high carb diet (grains) produces fat. Muscle is tough and
marbled meat is tender. Aged meat is definitely tastier and
tenderer than meat served while the cow is still warm and gasping.
Aged meat goes through a natural tenderizing process. We call this
process "rotting".

To each his own :-)
arthur wouk
2003-12-28 21:28:24 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, Gary James <.> wrote:
:On 27 Dec 2003 19:46:56 -0700, ***@blackhole.nyx.net (arthur wouk)
:wrote:
:
:>best beef is grass fed and properly aged. until you have eaten real
:>meat (not the corn-fed abominations popular in the us) you don't know
:>what beef tastes like.
:
:Walking and nibbling grass produces muscle. Standing still and
:eating a high carb diet (grains) produces fat. Muscle is tough and
:marbled meat is tender. Aged meat is definitely tastier and
:tenderer than meat served while the cow is still warm and gasping.
:Aged meat goes through a natural tenderizing process. We call this
:process "rotting".
:
:To each his own :-)

aging makes the best beef. it makes most game edible.

after all, cooking is just speeded up rotting! :-)
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Gary James
2003-12-28 15:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Pooler
Post by jim
Angus has advantage in fat marbeling! Much better distribution then
herford.
Wasn't that the old criteria before the new grading system
decided lean was good? Prime was well marbled, choice was
leaner, but now prime is leaner, fat is bad? That's the way it
appears at Target, the only major market here that has both USDA
prime and choice side by side. If so, this would explain the
marketing strategy of the out-of-work Black Angus producers.
I've not seen meat displayed side by side so I'll take your word for
it. I do know that the definition of what is Choice now and what
was Choice in the early 1970s is not the same. Actually what we
called Choice in 1972 would be better than today's Prime.

The classification use to depend on how many days the steers were on
feedlot grain. I have no idea how *many* days they were on feed but
it went something like this:

10 to 30 on feed days meat is "Stew grade"
40 to 90 days meat is Choice
100 to 150 days meat is Prime

Nowadays it would be closer to:

10 to 40 days Choice
50 to 90 days Prime
jim
2003-12-27 23:07:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:39:54 GMT Rita Rita
Post by Rita
Post by arthur wouk
:sorry, Arthur, but you are wrong or your newsreports are wrong. This
:cow was a dairy cow. In any event, dairy cows are not slaughtered for
:meat but ground up for feed for other bovines. That is the scary part
:of this that would lead to the disease spreading downstream quickly, as
:it did in Great Britain.
:Farmer Bob
unfortunately for you and us, the DoA admits the meat was in the human food
chain. fasdt food hamburger doesn't care what the source is.
I read that people on the West Coast prefer beef from Holsteins, which
are dairy cattle. People in the East prefer Angus beef. Now I'm no
expert, this is all new sto me, but it seems dairy cattle are slaughtered for
meat in some parts of the country.
Sure. Cow is beef whether from Holstein, Gurnsey, Jersey, Angus, or
Herfords, or Charolais. Dairy cows are lower in fat as they are not
bred to be gain weight (fat). I did not know dairy cows were
slaughtered if still producing milk however. As a kid we never
slaughtered them until they dried up. I don't know why but always
assumed meat was not as good somehow. Maybe they gain more fat once
they go dry and that is why. Once a cow goes dry, they don't produce
milk until they calve however IME.
susan
2003-12-26 23:09:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Rita,
Not to worry too much about this one. But ...
still, I am thinking about it
Gary James
2003-12-28 14:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by susan
Post by Bob
Rita,
Not to worry too much about this one. But ...
still, I am thinking about it
When eating beef inspected by the USDA, get use to the term "edible
offal". Feces which have been slung out of the bowels of one carcass
onto another carry this term.
rumpelstiltskin
2003-12-28 20:31:32 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:32:32 -0500, Gary James
Post by Gary James
Post by susan
Post by Bob
Rita,
Not to worry too much about this one. But ...
still, I am thinking about it
When eating beef inspected by the USDA, get use to the term "edible
offal". Feces which have been slung out of the bowels of one carcass
onto another carry this term.
Gee, thanks for bringing that to my attention. One of my reasons
for being reluctant to eat chicken is seeing those shipping crates of
them stacked on trucks so that they're crapping on each other. I
expect what you say is true though, since unlike Bush's original
and revised offered reasons for what he wants to do, it has the ring
of truth about it.

I made up spaghetti with the last of my ground beef yesterday.
I'll finish this, but even while I was eating the first of it, the mad
cow was on my mind. Fay pointed out that only the brains contain
the prion, but Jim C., I think, pointed out that the nervous system
contains them too and the nervous system can't be removed from
the beef. That makes sense since the brain is just a swollen part
of the nervous system. I have zero confidence that we're being
told anything but soothing lies about the condition of the cattle
and the processing in the USA by the "authorities", Pretty soon
there won't be much left that I want to eat. I'll have to survive on
diet soda and cheese. and nuts and berries that I pick myself from
the trees, at least until I hear something similar about cheese.

I've had three cans of Barq's diet root beer this morning and am
about to have a fourth, so I really hope you don't have anything in
your bag about diet soda similar to what you have about beef. I
already know about aspertame, and I can live with what I know
about that so far. I'd rather have saccharin and much rather have
splenda in diet soda, but such is not easily available. I think some
diet versions of coke or pepsi use saccharin, but I don't much
care for coke and pepsi.
Gary James
2003-12-28 21:42:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:31:32 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:32:32 -0500, Gary James
Post by Gary James
When eating beef inspected by the USDA, get use to the term "edible
offal". Feces which have been slung out of the bowels of one carcass
onto another carry this term.
Gee, thanks for bringing that to my attention. One of my reasons
for being reluctant to eat chicken is seeing those shipping crates of
them stacked on trucks so that they're crapping on each other. I
expect what you say is true though, since unlike Bush's original
and revised offered reasons for what he wants to do, it has the ring
of truth about it.
I'm really not so much scared by all this as I am just disgusted. I
eat meat but I haven't eaten much in 15 years. What's the old saw
about if you like laws and sausage, don't ever watch them being
made ? The more I (accidently) learn about the meat industry the
more repellant meat is. I really think it's worse than when Upton
Sinclair wrote "Jungle". At least back then they didn't try to
increase the weight of meat by devious means. It's not so much meat
itself. If you are in position to deal direct with a butcher and
get the stuff right, then life is good. I lost my last contact
about 20 years ago.

For instance they never stop the line at a USDA processor unless
"outside contaminants" are seen on the beef carcasses. If while
the guts are ripped out of one cow and the feces sling to another, it
is left in place and becomes edible offal. It is not "outside
contamination", as most of us might think. So although you might
pay $7 for a burger vs $1 for one at McDonalds, your meat comes from
the same general source. Look up (google) Listeria+regulations if
you want to avoid meat for a few days.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I made up spaghetti with the last of my ground beef yesterday.
I have started a couple of new dishes recently. I'm not sure how long
they will appeal to me. I get this canned (imitation) soy ground
beef at the Grocery. It's really not bad and I use it to make
spaghetti and chili with beans. What I miss in flavor I gain in
being able to eat without gagging. There is absolutely no EO :-)
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I'll finish this, but even while I was eating the first of it, the mad
cow was on my mind. Fay pointed out that only the brains contain
the prion, but Jim C., I think, pointed out that the nervous system
contains them too and the nervous system can't be removed from
the beef. That makes sense since the brain is just a swollen part
of the nervous system. I have zero confidence that we're being
told anything but soothing lies about the condition of the cattle
and the processing in the USA by the "authorities", Pretty soon
there won't be much left that I want to eat. I'll have to survive on
diet soda and cheese. and nuts and berries that I pick myself from
the trees, at least until I hear something similar about cheese.
In the past year I have become aware of the fact that I could live
quite happily on nothing but Cheese, nuts, berries, fresh fruit
(Melons everyday) with a small amount of fresh vegetables, and maybe
one slice of bread a day. I'm just afraid I wouldn't get enough
nutrients.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I've had three cans of Barq's diet root beer this morning and am
about to have a fourth, so I really hope you don't have anything in
your bag about diet soda similar to what you have about beef. I
already know about aspertame, and I can live with what I know
about that so far.
So far aspertame doesn't scare me very much. I use it sparingly.
Splenda is my main sweetener. I have liked Root Beer since I was a
kid. I usually drink a lot of the diet kind in the summer. It's
especially good as a "float" with frozen yogurt.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I'd rather have saccharin and much rather have
splenda in diet soda, but such is not easily available.
I noticed that last time I was on Dr Atkins diet. I made up a lot
of Kool Aid with Splenda. Mix it double strength and it's far
better. I also like to pour Kool Aid into ice trays and let them
get just past "mushy". Then drop into a blender and it makes
pretty good slurpy.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I think some
diet versions of coke or pepsi use saccharin, but I don't much
care for coke and pepsi.
BTW here's a little home remedy I ran across about 10 years back. I
don't know if it will work on anyone else but I've had good luck. I
was told that lemon juice is a natural diuretic. I tried using
frozen and concentrate. They didn't work. But I squeeze the
juice from one lemon, fresh, and drink it with about three ounces of
water. It seems to do good for me.
rumpelstiltskin
2003-12-29 08:09:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:42:13 -0500, Gary James
Post by Gary James
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:31:32 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:32:32 -0500, Gary James
Post by Gary James
When eating beef inspected by the USDA, get use to the term "edible
offal". Feces which have been slung out of the bowels of one carcass
onto another carry this term.
Gee, thanks for bringing that to my attention. One of my reasons
for being reluctant to eat chicken is seeing those shipping crates of
them stacked on trucks so that they're crapping on each other. I
expect what you say is true though, since unlike Bush's original
and revised offered reasons for what he wants to do, it has the ring
of truth about it.
I'm really not so much scared by all this as I am just disgusted. I
eat meat but I haven't eaten much in 15 years. What's the old saw
about if you like laws and sausage, don't ever watch them being
made ? The more I (accidently) learn about the meat industry the
more repellant meat is. I really think it's worse than when Upton
Sinclair wrote "Jungle". At least back then they didn't try to
increase the weight of meat by devious means. It's not so much meat
itself. If you are in position to deal direct with a butcher and
get the stuff right, then life is good. I lost my last contact
about 20 years ago.
For instance they never stop the line at a USDA processor unless
"outside contaminants" are seen on the beef carcasses. If while
the guts are ripped out of one cow and the feces sling to another, it
is left in place and becomes edible offal. It is not "outside
contamination", as most of us might think. So although you might
pay $7 for a burger vs $1 for one at McDonalds, your meat comes from
the same general source. Look up (google) Listeria+regulations if
you want to avoid meat for a few days.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I made up spaghetti with the last of my ground beef yesterday.
I have started a couple of new dishes recently. I'm not sure how long
they will appeal to me. I get this canned (imitation) soy ground
beef at the Grocery. It's really not bad and I use it to make
spaghetti and chili with beans. What I miss in flavor I gain in
being able to eat without gagging. There is absolutely no EO :-)
I find soy fairly inoffensive, but about as interesting to eat as
paper, myself. It does have some carbohydrate, and I don't
see any reason to accept any carbohydrate at all in anything
so completely uninteresting. I'd rather save my carbohydrate
excesses for things I actually love, such as raspberry-flavored
cream cookies .
Post by Gary James
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I'll finish this, but even while I was eating the first of it, the mad
cow was on my mind. Fay pointed out that only the brains contain
the prion, but Jim C., I think, pointed out that the nervous system
contains them too and the nervous system can't be removed from
the beef. That makes sense since the brain is just a swollen part
of the nervous system. I have zero confidence that we're being
told anything but soothing lies about the condition of the cattle
and the processing in the USA by the "authorities", Pretty soon
there won't be much left that I want to eat. I'll have to survive on
diet soda and cheese. and nuts and berries that I pick myself from
the trees, at least until I hear something similar about cheese.
In the past year I have become aware of the fact that I could live
quite happily on nothing but Cheese, nuts, berries, fresh fruit
(Melons everyday) with a small amount of fresh vegetables, and maybe
one slice of bread a day. I'm just afraid I wouldn't get enough
nutrients.
If I didn't eat beef, there wouldn't be much I could eat. I very
much dislike most sea food except for battered halibut and, very
occasionally, tuna. I don't like to eat pork or chicken very often.
There are a couple of non-starchy vegetables I can tolerate,
such as spinach, but they don't hold my interest long. I hardly
ever eat fruit or nuts, though the orange juice I mention below
was good. I don't eat bread at all as a rule, though I do get a
slice of pizza occasionally but that's a "luxury" item.

Cheese is great. I cut myself a slice of sharp cheddar earlier
today and let the cat have a sniff. To my surprise, he started
licking it avidly. Usually he avoids people food. He lost interest
after a minute or two, so I put the rest of it on a plate for him,
but it may be one of those things like ham and spinach that
he won't eat unless I feed it to him by hand.
Post by Gary James
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I've had three cans of Barq's diet root beer this morning and am
about to have a fourth, so I really hope you don't have anything in
your bag about diet soda similar to what you have about beef. I
already know about aspertame, and I can live with what I know
about that so far.
So far aspertame doesn't scare me very much. I use it sparingly.
Splenda is my main sweetener. I have liked Root Beer since I was a
kid. I usually drink a lot of the diet kind in the summer. It's
especially good as a "float" with frozen yogurt.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I'd rather have saccharin and much rather have
splenda in diet soda, but such is not easily available.
I noticed that last time I was on Dr Atkins diet. I made up a lot
of Kool Aid with Splenda. Mix it double strength and it's far
better. I also like to pour Kool Aid into ice trays and let them
get just past "mushy". Then drop into a blender and it makes
pretty good slurpy.
I really like carbonation, though: it's the main attraction of
drinks (other than coffee and hot chocolate) for me.

I've mixed up a couple of tubes of orange juice lately from
an eight-pack that's been sitting in my freezer for the last year
or two, and it was good, but nothing beats good old American
soda pop. I did try seltzer water and club soda, but they don't
have enough zing. The main reason I go to Safeway (when
there's no strike) is that Safeway has some unusual
good-tasting house-brand diet sodas, particular the blackberry.
Post by Gary James
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I think some
diet versions of coke or pepsi use saccharin, but I don't much
care for coke and pepsi.
BTW here's a little home remedy I ran across about 10 years back. I
don't know if it will work on anyone else but I've had good luck. I
was told that lemon juice is a natural diuretic. I tried using
frozen and concentrate. They didn't work. But I squeeze the
juice from one lemon, fresh, and drink it with about three ounces of
water. It seems to do good for me.
I don't know anything about diuretics. If one has no
trouble peeing, is there any need for them?
Rita
2003-12-29 13:16:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:09:57 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I find soy fairly inoffensive, but about as interesting to eat as
paper, myself. It does have some carbohydrate, and I don't
see any reason to accept any carbohydrate at all in anything
so completely uninteresting. I'd rather save my carbohydrate
excesses for things I actually love, such as raspberry-flavored
cream cookies .
Last night I was going to cook a small pork chop, but all the
talk about Mad Cow Disease and downed animals in general
got to me. Instead I ate linguine with clam sauce. There is
nothing offensive to me about a clam and I eat even raw fish
with gusto.

Both the Japanese and Thais do great things with tofu which
is made from soy milk. While just by itself it is blah tasting and
uninteresting, with various sauces it is delicious.
rumpelstiltskin
2003-12-29 18:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rita
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:09:57 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I find soy fairly inoffensive, but about as interesting to eat as
paper, myself. It does have some carbohydrate, and I don't
see any reason to accept any carbohydrate at all in anything
so completely uninteresting. I'd rather save my carbohydrate
excesses for things I actually love, such as raspberry-flavored
cream cookies .
Last night I was going to cook a small pork chop, but all the
talk about Mad Cow Disease and downed animals in general
got to me. Instead I ate linguine with clam sauce. There is
nothing offensive to me about a clam and I eat even raw fish
with gusto.
I used to go quahogging as a kid, but I was never tempted to
eat any of what I dug up and sold. I used to eat clam chowder
and clamcakes, and could do so again if somebody challenged
me to prove that I could do it. Clam chowder, as I recall, is not
too bad, as long as you can get your mind past the clams in it.
At one time, the concession stand at Horseneck Beach in
Westport MA sold clam cakes without clams. For some, that
might sound like tequila without the worm, but I thought it was a
great idea, and I guess I wasn't the only one, since they were
available for a while.

There was a quahogging kid who'd occasionally crack open
a quahog and eat the edible part, raw, right then and there out
of the shell, but I think he only did that to impress the rest of us.
Post by Rita
Both the Japanese and Thais do great things with tofu which
is made from soy milk. While just by itself it is blah tasting and
uninteresting, with various sauces it is delicious.
I once saw on TV a dietary expert pushing healthful eating.
She was being interviewed by two co-anchors, a woman and a
man. At one point the man said something like "I don't want to
hear about a 'delicious' dish of vegetables. I'm a guy, and I
want MEAT." I felt a well of comraderie for him rise up in me.
uncleward
2003-12-29 22:10:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rita
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:09:57 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I find soy fairly inoffensive, but about as interesting to eat as
paper, myself. It does have some carbohydrate, and I don't
see any reason to accept any carbohydrate at all in anything
so completely uninteresting. I'd rather save my carbohydrate
excesses for things I actually love, such as raspberry-flavored
cream cookies .
Last night I was going to cook a small pork chop, but all the
talk about Mad Cow Disease and downed animals in general
got to me. Instead I ate linguine with clam sauce. There is
nothing offensive to me about a clam and I eat even raw fish
with gusto.
Try it with wasabi -- mo bettah!

ward
Earl
2003-12-30 01:13:25 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:16:54 GMT, Rita
Post by Rita
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:09:57 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I find soy fairly inoffensive, but about as interesting
to eat as
paper, myself. It does have some carbohydrate, and I don't
see any reason to accept any carbohydrate at all in
anything so completely uninteresting. I'd rather save my
carbohydrate excesses for things I actually love, such as
raspberry-flavored cream cookies .
Last night I was going to cook a small pork chop, but all
the talk about Mad Cow Disease and downed animals in general
got to me. Instead I ate linguine with clam sauce. There
is nothing offensive to me about a clam and I eat even raw
fish with gusto.
Try it with wasabi -- mo bettah!
ward
Clams, lobster, crab; all bottom feeders that consume evrything
and everything that is dead, and a lot of live bacteria.

There is a reason that those items were on the banned list for
over 2000 years by major dietary regulations. The descriptive
word is "UNCLEAN".

How many BSE cows were born in the US? Compared to how often
shellfish etc (in just the last year!!) have been put on
quarentine list for human fecal contamination.

But people like to take risks; that is why fugu is so popular in
Japan even though there are several "expert" chefs who poison
themselves each year. Not quite as high a risk as "Russian
Roulettte" but still certain to catch some idiot.
Harry Thompson
2003-12-30 13:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Earl
Clams, lobster, crab; all bottom feeders that consume evrything
and everything that is dead, and a lot of live bacteria.
There is a reason that those items were on the banned list for
over 2000 years by major dietary regulations. The descriptive
word is "UNCLEAN".
Just a technical correction, Earl.

When a food is termed "unclean" in the Pentatuch, it does not
mean "it should be washed" or it is "unsanitary."

It means "yechhh!"

Moses was a tribal leader, not a sanitation engineer.

--
Hap
Post by Earl
How many BSE cows were born in the US? Compared to how often
shellfish etc (in just the last year!!) have been put on
quarentine list for human fecal contamination.
But people like to take risks; that is why fugu is so popular in
Japan even though there are several "expert" chefs who poison
themselves each year. Not quite as high a risk as "Russian
Roulettte" but still certain to catch some idiot.
Gary James
2003-12-30 15:36:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:54:41 -0600, "Harry Thompson"
Post by Harry Thompson
Post by Earl
Clams, lobster, crab; all bottom feeders that consume evrything
and everything that is dead, and a lot of live bacteria.
There is a reason that those items were on the banned list for
over 2000 years by major dietary regulations. The descriptive
word is "UNCLEAN".
Just a technical correction, Earl.
When a food is termed "unclean" in the Pentatuch, it does not
mean "it should be washed" or it is "unsanitary."
It means "yechhh!"
Moses was a tribal leader, not a sanitation engineer.
Someone once told me that an animal is not unclean because of what he
eats but because of how he digests his food. According to him a
pig eliminates food through the pores of the hooves. I'm not
certain that an oyster ever eliminates anything :-)
rumpelstiltskin
2003-12-30 19:52:12 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:36:42 -0500, Gary James
Post by Gary James
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:54:41 -0600, "Harry Thompson"
Post by Harry Thompson
Post by Earl
Clams, lobster, crab; all bottom feeders that consume evrything
and everything that is dead, and a lot of live bacteria.
There is a reason that those items were on the banned list for
over 2000 years by major dietary regulations. The descriptive
word is "UNCLEAN".
Just a technical correction, Earl.
When a food is termed "unclean" in the Pentatuch, it does not
mean "it should be washed" or it is "unsanitary."
It means "yechhh!"
Moses was a tribal leader, not a sanitation engineer.
Someone once told me that an animal is not unclean because of what he
eats but because of how he digests his food. According to him a
pig eliminates food through the pores of the hooves. I'm not
certain that an oyster ever eliminates anything :-)
Sharks pee through their skin, and lamb to me has a taste
that makes me think, while I'm eating it, that sheep do that too.
Mint sauce helps, but not enough.
Harry Thompson
2003-12-30 23:42:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:36:42 -0500, Gary James
Post by Gary James
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:54:41 -0600, "Harry Thompson"
Post by Harry Thompson
Post by Earl
Clams, lobster, crab; all bottom feeders that consume evrything
and everything that is dead, and a lot of live bacteria.
There is a reason that those items were on the banned list for
over 2000 years by major dietary regulations. The descriptive
word is "UNCLEAN".
Just a technical correction, Earl.
When a food is termed "unclean" in the Pentatuch, it does not
mean "it should be washed" or it is "unsanitary."
It means "yechhh!"
Moses was a tribal leader, not a sanitation engineer.
Someone once told me that an animal is not unclean because of what he
eats but because of how he digests his food. According to him a
pig eliminates food through the pores of the hooves. I'm not
certain that an oyster ever eliminates anything :-)
Sharks pee through their skin, and lamb to me has a taste
that makes me think, while I'm eating it, that sheep do that too.
Mint sauce helps, but not enough.
Maybe that was mutton, not lamb?

In David Kahn's monumental history of cryptography, _The
Codebreakers_,
discussing the translation of ancient Ugaritic (Biblical Canaan) clay
tablets,
there is this revealing passage on "abhorrent" food:

The reason for the prohibition of Exodus 23:19, "Thou shalt not
seethe
a kid in its mother's milk," the basis of the kosher law that
forbids
mixing meat and dairy foods, had never been clear. A Ugarit tablet
reading in part "Cook a lamb in milk, a lamb in curdled milk"
suggests that the Hebrews reacted against a Canaanite practice and
thereby set themselves apart.

In other words, kid boiled in milk was a Canaanite dish.

Sanitation had nothing to do with it.

(I'm not disagreeing with you, Rumple, nor with Gary, I'm just
adding to my previous post)

--
Hap
rumpelstiltskin
2003-12-31 02:29:17 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:42:45 -0600, "Harry Thompson"
Post by Harry Thompson
Maybe that was mutton, not lamb?
I don't know what it was, since I've never bought it myself.
I've had it several times and always disliked it. It was never
presented as "mutton", though for all I know it might have
been. The other people eating it didn't seem to find it
objectionable as I did. I'm finicky about food, though I'm
anything but a gourmet. I don't even much like pork, or to a
lesser extent, chicken. I do like moose, though. Moose is a
bit gamey, but not as bad as venison, and the best thing
about it is there's very little fat. I tend to avoid fat in beef
because I find it over-satiating, not because of diet
considerations. The Prime Rib that's so popular in Las
Vegas makes me feel uncomfortable halfway through one
serving, even after I've cut off the conspicuous slabs of fat.

(I'm drinking eggnog as I write this, but that's a seasonal
thing and I really love the stuff, so I'm indulging.)
Post by Harry Thompson
(I'm not disagreeing with you, Rumple, nor with Gary, I'm just
adding to my previous post)
Gary James
2003-12-29 23:01:19 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:09:57 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:42:13 -0500, Gary James
Post by Gary James
I have started a couple of new dishes recently. I'm not sure how long
they will appeal to me. I get this canned (imitation) soy ground
beef at the Grocery. It's really not bad and I use it to make
spaghetti and chili with beans. What I miss in flavor I gain in
being able to eat without gagging. There is absolutely no EO :-)
I find soy fairly inoffensive, but about as interesting to eat as
paper, myself.
Exactly. But compared with EO it seems pretty good. I have a
younger cousin who got her Masters at Loma Linda in nutrition. She
can take tofu, nuts and cheese and whip up some very tasty meals.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
It does have some carbohydrate, and I don't
see any reason to accept any carbohydrate at all in anything
so completely uninteresting. I'd rather save my carbohydrate
excesses for things I actually love, such as raspberry-flavored
cream cookies .
I can understand that. When I am on the Atkins diet I am very
careful where I waste my carb rations.

My problem with diet is that I have two opposing views as to what is
right for me to eat. First I think that my early training in
eating a lot of fruits, nuts and veggies is good. I naturally like
these but lots of carbs. OTOH I think Dr Atkin was right. For
the past 17 years I have been in a struggle between these opposing
views.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
If I didn't eat beef, there wouldn't be much I could eat. I very
much dislike most sea food except for battered halibut and, very
occasionally, tuna. I don't like to eat pork or chicken very often.
There are a couple of non-starchy vegetables I can tolerate,
such as spinach, but they don't hold my interest long. I hardly
ever eat fruit or nuts, though the orange juice I mention below
was good. I don't eat bread at all as a rule, though I do get a
slice of pizza occasionally but that's a "luxury" item.
Cheese is great. I cut myself a slice of sharp cheddar earlier
today and let the cat have a sniff. To my surprise, he started
licking it avidly.
Usually he avoids people food. He lost interest
after a minute or two, so I put the rest of it on a plate for him,
but it may be one of those things like ham and spinach that
he won't eat unless I feed it to him by hand.
I can eat a lot of cheese if I'm not careful. I also have a cat
that will not eat any food we eat. I'm beginning to think he is
addicted to this "edible offal" in dry cat food.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I really like carbonation, though: it's the main attraction of
drinks (other than coffee and hot chocolate) for me.
I've mixed up a couple of tubes of orange juice lately from
an eight-pack that's been sitting in my freezer for the last year
or two, and it was good, but nothing beats good old American
soda pop. I did try seltzer water and club soda, but they don't
have enough zing. The main reason I go to Safeway (when
there's no strike) is that Safeway has some unusual
good-tasting house-brand diet sodas, particular the blackberry.
Post by Gary James
BTW here's a little home remedy I ran across about 10 years back. I
don't know if it will work on anyone else but I've had good luck. I
was told that lemon juice is a natural diuretic. I tried using
frozen and concentrate. They didn't work. But I squeeze the
juice from one lemon, fresh, and drink it with about three ounces of
water. It seems to do good for me.
I don't know anything about diuretics. If one has no
trouble peeing, is there any need for them?
It's not a problem of being able *to*. When the body holds excess
water it can cause problems. My understanding is that a diuretic
helps release water from tissue in the body and let it work it's way
through the urinary tract. I have a friend who uses diuretics to
keep his weight and blood pressure down.
rumpelstiltskin
2003-12-30 03:00:18 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:01:19 -0500, Gary James
Post by Gary James
It's not a problem of being able *to*. When the body holds excess
water it can cause problems. My understanding is that a diuretic
helps release water from tissue in the body and let it work it's way
through the urinary tract. I have a friend who uses diuretics to
keep his weight and blood pressure down.
My body seems to save its most intense signals that I have to pee
for when I'm engrossed in something on the computer or engaged
in a long telephone conversation. I guess my urinary tract has been
taken over by some vexatious demon.
Rita
2003-12-28 21:44:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:31:32 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I made up spaghetti with the last of my ground beef yesterday.
I'll finish this, but even while I was eating the first of it, the mad
cow was on my mind. Fay pointed out that only the brains contain
the prion, but Jim C., I think, pointed out that the nervous system
contains them too and the nervous system can't be removed from
the beef. That makes sense since the brain is just a swollen part
of the nervous system. I have zero confidence that we're being
told anything but soothing lies about the condition of the cattle
and the processing in the USA by the "authorities", Pretty soon
there won't be much left that I want to eat. I'll have to survive on
diet soda and cheese. and nuts and berries that I pick myself from
the trees, at least until I hear something similar about cheese.
As I understand what the government apologists are saying is
that only the brain and the spinal cord contain the prions that
cause the disease. They are supposed to be separated from
the rest of the carcass. But stop and think for a minute about the
slaughtering process and those who do it and how can one not
see how easy it would be for bits of meat from one part of the
beast to get mixed with bits from other parts. This separation is
done in a slaughtering plant, not in an OR with skilled surgeons
excising the offendings parts.

I can live without beef very nicely. And shall do so until this furor
spits out more information. Although I am inclined to trust the meat
fromt the Whole Foods Supermarket chain that has its own suppliers
and promises its beef cannot be infected with the disease. No
feed with animal byproducts are fed to the cattle. No antibiotics and
growth hormones. They have their own suppliers quite apart from
the nation wide meat industry.
arthur wouk
2003-12-28 22:05:41 UTC
Permalink
the specialists in the field (not at DoA) are not convinced that the
prions are restricted to the brain and spinal cord. that is the bad
news.

the fact that cwd and scrapie are transmitted without animal eating
animal is even mroe disconcerting. it is generally held that cwd and
bse originated somehow with sheep, and somehow made an interspecies
jump without ingestion as we think of it. there is a great mystery
here.
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Karl Sigerist Sr©
2003-12-29 08:13:08 UTC
Permalink
"rumpelstiltskin" wrote in message
Post by rumpelstiltskin
, Gary James
Post by Gary James
Bob wrote in message
Post by Bob
Rita,
Not to worry too much about this one. But ...
still, I am thinking about it
When eating beef inspected by the USDA, get use to the term "edible
offal". Feces which have been slung out of the bowels of one carcass
onto another carry this term.
Gee, thanks for bringing that to my attention. One of my reasons
for being reluctant to eat chicken is seeing those shipping crates of
them stacked on trucks so that they're crapping on each other. I
expect what you say is true though, since unlike Bush's original
and revised offered reasons for what he wants to do, it has the ring
of truth about it.
I made up spaghetti with the last of my ground beef yesterday.
I'll finish this, but even while I was eating the first of it, the mad
cow was on my mind. Fay pointed out that only the brains contain
the prion, but Jim C., I think, pointed out that the nervous system
contains them too and the nervous system can't be removed from
the beef. That makes sense since the brain is just a swollen part
of the nervous system. I have zero confidence that we're being
told anything but soothing lies about the condition of the cattle
and the processing in the USA by the "authorities", Pretty soon
there won't be much left that I want to eat. I'll have to survive on
diet soda and cheese. and nuts and berries that I pick myself from
the trees, at least until I hear something similar about cheese.
I've had three cans of Barq's diet root beer this morning and am
about to have a fourth, so I really hope you don't have anything in
your bag about diet soda similar to what you have about beef. I
already know about aspertame, and I can live with what I know
about that so far. I'd rather have saccharin and much rather have
splenda in diet soda, but such is not easily available. I think some
diet versions of coke or pepsi use saccharin, but I don't much
care for coke and pepsi.
Well Rumple it looks like we are going back to from were it all began,
grow your own wheat, grind it yourself, bake it yourself that is what one
could call reasonably "Organic" food. BTW forget about the poison in the
earth for the moment. ;-) since Kyoto is cancelled
And then distil your own water from a not too badly contaminated well
there you have it "Bread and Water" Prosit
--
KarlSr©
rick++
2003-12-31 17:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I made up spaghetti with the last of my ground beef yesterday.
I'll finish this, but even while I was eating the first of it, the mad
cow was on my mind.
I once saw a vegan website that bovine byproducts have around 200 uses in things
like cosmetics, medicine (the "gel" in the gel-tabs comes from cow hooves
or seaweed), clothing, as well many unsuspecting foods. You basically
have to completely isolate yourself from the modern economy to avoid it all.
rumpelstiltskin
2004-01-01 19:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by rick++
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I made up spaghetti with the last of my ground beef yesterday.
I'll finish this, but even while I was eating the first of it, the mad
cow was on my mind.
I once saw a vegan website that bovine byproducts have around 200 uses in things
like cosmetics, medicine (the "gel" in the gel-tabs comes from cow hooves
or seaweed), clothing, as well many unsuspecting foods. You basically
have to completely isolate yourself from the modern economy to avoid it all.
I'm not nearly as concerned about things I don't ingest, since the
skin is good protection against most things. As to the others, one
is never completely safe, but the fact that one might get hit by a
meteor doesn't mean one might as well live underneath a crumbling
hill.

Since there haven't been any human cases of mad cow disease
in the USA yet, and weren't even many in England, I suppose I'm
really more turned off by the descriptions of what goes in and in
transit to slaughterhouses meat that have come up in this
newsgroup since. I knew about much of it already, but not that
"edible offal" was actually systematically tolerated. I had a slice
of "big meat" pizza last night, though, and didn't think about mad
cow disease or slaughterhouses until I was halfway through it.
Gary James
2004-01-01 21:56:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 19:21:48 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by rick++
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I made up spaghetti with the last of my ground beef yesterday.
I'll finish this, but even while I was eating the first of it, the mad
cow was on my mind.
I once saw a vegan website that bovine byproducts have around 200 uses in things
like cosmetics, medicine (the "gel" in the gel-tabs comes from cow hooves
or seaweed), clothing, as well many unsuspecting foods. You basically
have to completely isolate yourself from the modern economy to avoid it all.
I'm not nearly as concerned about things I don't ingest, since the
skin is good protection against most things. As to the others, one
is never completely safe, but the fact that one might get hit by a
meteor doesn't mean one might as well live underneath a crumbling
hill.
Since there haven't been any human cases of mad cow disease
in the USA yet, and weren't even many in England, I suppose I'm
really more turned off by the descriptions of what goes in and in
transit to slaughterhouses meat that have come up in this
newsgroup since. I knew about much of it already, but not that
"edible offal" was actually systematically tolerated. I had a slice
of "big meat" pizza last night,
"Big Meat", eh ? I assume that is a local SF specialty made by a
family of Italians who moved to there specifically to make those
delightful pies. They probably still have an accent and purple feet
from making their own wine.

We might buy a semi-real pizza about once in 6 or 7 months. But I
do keep a frozen one on hand to have on nights when I have no taste
for anything else. Like tonight. There's something about pizza
and beer that is pure American.

Obviously I'll pick those little pieces of fake Pepperoni off.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
though, and didn't think about mad
cow disease or slaughterhouses until I was halfway through it.
What do you think newsgroups are for ? To aid in digestion or
protect your health ?

I'm reminded of the time in the 1960s that this forgotten male star
was cutting a TV commercial for coffee. He took a good mouthful,
smacked his lips, smiled into the camera and said; "That is great
p*ssy". Somehow that out-take made it to a comedy video of that day
and we all had to get a copy. The guy never made anymore
commercials.
rumpelstiltskin
2004-01-02 19:52:41 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 16:56:28 -0500, Gary James
Post by Gary James
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 19:21:48 GMT, rumpelstiltskin
Post by rumpelstiltskin
Post by rick++
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I made up spaghetti with the last of my ground beef yesterday.
I'll finish this, but even while I was eating the first of it, the mad
cow was on my mind.
I once saw a vegan website that bovine byproducts have around 200 uses in things
like cosmetics, medicine (the "gel" in the gel-tabs comes from cow hooves
or seaweed), clothing, as well many unsuspecting foods. You basically
have to completely isolate yourself from the modern economy to avoid it all.
I'm not nearly as concerned about things I don't ingest, since the
skin is good protection against most things. As to the others, one
is never completely safe, but the fact that one might get hit by a
meteor doesn't mean one might as well live underneath a crumbling
hill.
Since there haven't been any human cases of mad cow disease
in the USA yet, and weren't even many in England, I suppose I'm
really more turned off by the descriptions of what goes in and in
transit to slaughterhouses meat that have come up in this
newsgroup since. I knew about much of it already, but not that
"edible offal" was actually systematically tolerated. I had a slice
of "big meat" pizza last night,
"Big Meat", eh ? I assume that is a local SF specialty made by a
family of Italians who moved to there specifically to make those
delightful pies. They probably still have an accent and purple feet
from making their own wine.
I don't think there's much Italian about the pizza I get from the
local "Escape from New York" quickie pizza parlor. I usually buy
pizza there because I like their thin crust.
Post by Gary James
We might buy a semi-real pizza about once in 6 or 7 months. But I
do keep a frozen one on hand to have on nights when I have no taste
for anything else. Like tonight. There's something about pizza
and beer that is pure American.
Obviously I'll pick those little pieces of fake Pepperoni off.
Post by rumpelstiltskin
though, and didn't think about mad
cow disease or slaughterhouses until I was halfway through it.
What do you think newsgroups are for ? To aid in digestion or
protect your health ?
I thought they were just for entertainment? One does learn
something about alien political views too, but maybe that's not
much more than entertainment either.
Post by Gary James
I'm reminded of the time in the 1960s that this forgotten male star
was cutting a TV commercial for coffee. He took a good mouthful,
smacked his lips, smiled into the camera and said; "That is great
p*ssy". Somehow that out-take made it to a comedy video of that day
and we all had to get a copy. The guy never made anymore
commercials.
rick++
2004-01-05 18:21:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I'm not nearly as concerned about things I don't ingest, since the
skin is good protection against most things. As to the others, one
is never completely safe, but the fact that one might get hit by a
meteor doesn't mean one might as well live underneath a crumbling
hill.
An interesting risk comparison is that at least 25% of cardiovascular risk
is diet, and at least 25% of that beek and dairy fat, the annual heart death
risk of eating bovine products is in the tens thousands, or a thousand times
greater than the mad-cow death rate in UK.
rumpelstiltskin
2004-01-05 20:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by rick++
Post by rumpelstiltskin
I'm not nearly as concerned about things I don't ingest, since the
skin is good protection against most things. As to the others, one
is never completely safe, but the fact that one might get hit by a
meteor doesn't mean one might as well live underneath a crumbling
hill.
An interesting risk comparison is that at least 25% of cardiovascular risk
is diet, and at least 25% of that beek and dairy fat, the annual heart death
risk of eating bovine products is in the tens thousands, or a thousand times
greater than the mad-cow death rate in UK.
Yep, about cardiovascular risk, unless the forces behind
medicine are completely lying to us, which I don't at the moment
think they are in this case. Humans don't work quite that way,
though. Ken Lay hurt more people worse than your average
burglar, or maybe even more than all burglars added up together,
but the cops and the public are more concerned and more
definite about catching burglars.
arthur wouk
2004-01-06 17:18:43 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posting.google.com>,
rick++ <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> I'm not nearly as concerned about things I don't ingest, since the
:> skin is good protection against most things. As to the others, one
:> is never completely safe, but the fact that one might get hit by a
:> meteor doesn't mean one might as well live underneath a crumbling
:> hill.
:
:An interesting risk comparison is that at least 25% of cardiovascular risk
:is diet, and at least 25% of that beek and dairy fat, the annual heart death
:risk of eating bovine products is in the tens thousands, or a thousand times
:greater than the mad-cow death rate in UK.

well, maybe, maybe not. there are cultures which are high on these
products and have much less heart disease than we do. here is a nice
report on what mayreally be going on, and it isn't bovine products
which are at fault. the basic problem seems to be inflammation. and
most dietary approaches such as yours are just off on a wild tangent
to the real problems.

Hunt for Heart Disease Tracks a New Suspect

By JANE E. BRODY

L ittle by little, research has helped Americans chip away at what was
once a runaway epidemic of premature heart disease, which claimed the
lives of far too many people, especially men, in their 40's and 50's.

We learned through extensive and costly long-term studies that
cigarette smoking, elevated serum cholesterol levels, uncontrolled
high blood pressure and diabetes placed people at greatly increased
risk of heart disease and sudden cardiac death.

We also learned that people could control these major risk factors and
reduce their chances of developing heart disease or dying from it if
they quit smoking, changed their diets and, when necessary, took drugs
to lower cholesterol, blood pressure or blood sugar. As a result, the
number of Americans living beyond age 65 has more than doubled since
1960 even though the population has increased just 50 percent.

But the battle is far from over. Cardiovascular disease is still the
major killer of middle-aged men and by far the leading cause of death
for Americans over all. For about half of those who die from heart
disease, the very first symptom is sudden death. About 250,000 sudden
cardiac deaths occur each year in the United States.

For many who die this way, high cholesterol, now the main focus of
prevention efforts, is not a factor.

Cholesterol screening fails to identify 50 percent of the people who
have heart attacks in the United States each year, because their total
cholesterol is either normal or only moderately elevated, noted Dr.
Eric S. Rawson of the University of Massachusetts Medical School and
colleagues in the journal Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise in
July.

A New Risk Factor

"It is apparent that a substantial proportion of cardiovascular events
occurs in individuals without established risk factors," Dr. Daniel G.
Hackam and Dr. Sonia S. Anand of McMaster University in Ontario,
Canada, wrote in August in The Journal of the American Medical
Association. And so researchers are still looking for new factors that
seem to increase the risk of developing heart disease or dying from
it.

One emerging factor is a substance called C-reactive protein, or CRP.
It is a natural chemical produced in the liver and released into the
bloodstream in the presence of acute or chronic inflammation. High
levels of the chemical may explain why some people with low
cholesterol develop heart disease or why rigid adherence to a
cholesterol-lowering diet sometimes fails to prevent serious heart
problems.

In a study by researchers at Johns Hopkins, published in July in
Circulation, healthy middle-aged people with high levels of C-reactive
protein experienced less reduction in serum cholesterol and a greater
rise in triglycerides when they followed a cholesterol-lowering diet
than did a comparable group with low levels of CRP.

In the continuing Physicians' Health Study of 22,000 men, 97
apparently healthy participants suffered sudden cardiac deaths. The
only factors predictive of their fates over 17 years of study were
elevated C-reactive protein levels, Dr. Christine M. Albert of Brigham
and Women's Hospital and her Boston colleagues reported in May 2002 in
the journal Circulation.

In women, too, the C-reactive protein appears to be a better predictor
of heart attack, stroke and other signs of cardiovascular disease than
the so-called bad cholesterol, low density lipoprotein, or L.D.L.

In a study of 28,000 apparently healthy American women followed for an
average of eight years, levels of C-reactive protein were directly
related to the development of cardiovascular events like heart attacks
and strokes and more strongly predicted such problems than levels of
L.D.L. cholesterol, Dr. Paul M. Ridker and colleagues at Brigham and
Women's Hospital reported in November 2002 in The New England Journal
of Medicine.

Normally, there is no C-reactive protein in blood, but various tissue
injuries, infections and diseases are associated with its appearance,
among them rheumatoid arthritis, cancer, pneumococcal pneumonia and
heart attacks. It may also be present late in pregnancy and in women
taking oral contraceptives.

The role of C-reactive protein as a contributor to cardiovascular
disease fits nicely into the understanding that inflammation is
central to every stage of atherosclerotic disease, from the start of
plaque formation in arteries to the rupture of those plaques, which
can precipitate a heart attack or stroke.

Basic research has shown, for example, that CRP can enhance
destruction of arterial lining cells, activate adhesion molecules and
blood clotting factors and interfere with substances that increase
circulation to the heart.

Furthermore, a new study by heart and kidney specialists in South
Korea suggests that C-reactive protein is "an independent risk factor
for the development of hypertension," which in turn increases the
chances of suffering a heart attack or stroke.

In a study in Munich, cardiac patients treated with arterial stents to
improve coronary blood flow were more likely to suffer heart attacks
or die within 30 days of their insertion if they had high levels of
CRP.

According to Dr. Hackam and Dr. Anand's review of the literature,
chronic low-grade inflammation appears to underlie many, if not most,
cases of cardiovascular disease, and, they concluded, even small
increases in CRP can predict "future vascular events in apparently
healthy, asymptomatic individuals."

An analysis of 14 long-term studies indicated that compared with
people with the lowest levels of C-reactive protein, those with the
highest had twice the risk of heart attacks.

Among patients known to have atherosclerotic heart disease, those with
the highest levels of CRP were about four times more likely to
experience symptoms of impaired blood flow to the heart during a
treadmill test, indicating a direct relationship between inflammation
and a heart attack, researchers at the University of California at San
Francisco reported in Circulation last January.

"Our study supports the idea that heart disease is more of a systemic
disease rather than just a plumbing problem," said Dr. Mary S.
Beattie, the study's lead author. Based on such findings, some experts
believe that levels of C-reactive protein are better than cholesterol
levels at predicting future cardiac events. Patients can lower their
CRP levels if they lose weight, quit smoking, change their diets and
exercise more. Many drugs may also help, especially the
cholesterol-lowering statins and the antidiabetic thiazolidinediones.

Should CRP Be Measured?

C-reactive protein can be measured by a simple, inexpensive blood
test. The best results are obtained through two tests that are done at
least two weeks apart with their results averaged.

In March 2002, experts from the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention and the American Heart Association concluded that patients
deemed to be at "intermediate risk" of a heart attack, stroke or other
cardiovascular event should be tested for C-reactive protein.

Intermediate risk is defined as those with a 10 percent to 20 percent
chance of developing coronary heart disease within 10 years, based on
age, total cholesterol level, smoking status, systolic blood pressure
(the upper number) and blood level of protective H.D.L. cholesterol.

The experts recommended that those with C-reactive protein levels of 1
milligram per liter or more take aggressive action to reduce the
level.

The experts, however, do not recommend CRP testing either for those at
otherwise low risk of heart disease or for those known to be at high
risk those who already have signs of trouble, since they should
already be getting aggressive treatment.

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Gary James
2004-01-06 19:22:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by arthur wouk
The experts recommended that those with C-reactive protein levels of 1
milligram per liter or more take aggressive action to reduce the
level.
The experts, however, do not recommend CRP testing either for those at
otherwise low risk of heart disease or for those known to be at high
risk those who already have signs of trouble, since they should
already be getting aggressive treatment.
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
A very interesting post. I just wish I knew more about human
chemistry. I "googled" and came up with this three year old
article:

"...The findings also suggested that, if C-reactive protein is part of
the cause of inflammation that lays the groundwork for atherosclerosis
and cardiovascular events, it may also explain why aspirin lowers
heart attack and stroke risk. And that raises “the possibility that
anti-inflammatory agents may have clinical benefits in preventing
cardiovascular disease.” (Editors note: Aspirin helps to lower
C-reactive protein levels.)..."

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2001/jan2001_itn.html
arthur wouk
2004-01-06 22:24:54 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, Gary James <.> wrote:
:On 6 Jan 2004 10:18:43 -0700, ***@blackhole.nyx.net (arthur wouk)
:wrote:
:
:>
:> The experts recommended that those with C-reactive protein levels of 1
:> milligram per liter or more take aggressive action to reduce the
:> level.
:>
:> The experts, however, do not recommend CRP testing either for those at
:> otherwise low risk of heart disease or for those known to be at high
:> risk those who already have signs of trouble, since they should
:> already be getting aggressive treatment.
:>
:> Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
:
:A very interesting post. I just wish I knew more about human
:chemistry. I "googled" and came up with this three year old
:article:
:
:"...The findings also suggested that, if C-reactive protein is part of
:the cause of inflammation that lays the groundwork for atherosclerosis
:and cardiovascular events, it may also explain why aspirin lowers
:heart attack and stroke risk. And that raises “the possibility that
:anti-inflammatory agents may have clinical benefits in preventing
:cardiovascular disease.” (Editors note: Aspirin helps to lower
:C-reactive protein levels.)..."
:
:http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2001/jan2001_itn.html
:

i have been on long term anti-inflamamtory medication, so i tend to
follow these matters. those of us on these medications seem to have
better cardio-vascular system outcomes than the general population.
some slight payback for the problems of arthritis.
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
rumpelstiltskin
2004-01-06 19:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by arthur wouk
:> I'm not nearly as concerned about things I don't ingest, since the
:> skin is good protection against most things. As to the others, one
:> is never completely safe, but the fact that one might get hit by a
:> meteor doesn't mean one might as well live underneath a crumbling
:> hill.
:An interesting risk comparison is that at least 25% of cardiovascular risk
:is diet, and at least 25% of that beek and dairy fat, the annual heart death
:risk of eating bovine products is in the tens thousands, or a thousand times
:greater than the mad-cow death rate in UK.
well, maybe, maybe not. there are cultures which are high on these
products and have much less heart disease than we do. here is a nice
report on what mayreally be going on, and it isn't bovine products
which are at fault. the basic problem seems to be inflammation. and
most dietary approaches such as yours are just off on a wild tangent
to the real problems.
China and Japan both have low cholesterol and low incidence of
heart disease. That's not dependent on the diet, but on the
lifestyle, it would seem, since Japanese people living in America who
maintain Japanese dietary habits nonetheless experience an upswing
in incidence of heart disease.

Other than those two countries, it seems from what I've seen in
unselected data, that there's practically zero correlation between
blood cholesterol level and heart disease, excluding certain people
with a genetic variation that leads both to extremely high cholesterol
(over 400 or so) and also to heart disease.

I'm taking a cholesterol-lowering drug anyway, but I have very
strong doubts. The data selection in commonly cited statistics is
so extreme and arbitrary that the word "falsified" seems appropriate.
There's of course a "Follow the money" factor, since drug companies
have so much invested in these drugs and get so much profit from
them that maintaining the market is a fiscal survival issue for them.
Post by arthur wouk
Hunt for Heart Disease Tracks a New Suspect
By JANE E. BRODY
L ittle by little, research has helped Americans chip away at what was
once a runaway epidemic of premature heart disease, which claimed the
lives of far too many people, especially men, in their 40's and 50's.
We learned through extensive and costly long-term studies that
cigarette smoking, elevated serum cholesterol levels, uncontrolled
high blood pressure and diabetes placed people at greatly increased
risk of heart disease and sudden cardiac death.
We also learned that people could control these major risk factors and
reduce their chances of developing heart disease or dying from it if
they quit smoking, changed their diets and, when necessary, took drugs
to lower cholesterol, blood pressure or blood sugar. As a result, the
number of Americans living beyond age 65 has more than doubled since
1960 even though the population has increased just 50 percent.
But the battle is far from over. Cardiovascular disease is still the
major killer of middle-aged men and by far the leading cause of death
for Americans over all. For about half of those who die from heart
disease, the very first symptom is sudden death. About 250,000 sudden
cardiac deaths occur each year in the United States.
For many who die this way, high cholesterol, now the main focus of
prevention efforts, is not a factor.
Cholesterol screening fails to identify 50 percent of the people who
have heart attacks in the United States each year, because their total
cholesterol is either normal or only moderately elevated, noted Dr.
Eric S. Rawson of the University of Massachusetts Medical School and
colleagues in the journal Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise in
July.
A New Risk Factor
"It is apparent that a substantial proportion of cardiovascular events
occurs in individuals without established risk factors," Dr. Daniel G.
Hackam and Dr. Sonia S. Anand of McMaster University in Ontario,
Canada, wrote in August in The Journal of the American Medical
Association. And so researchers are still looking for new factors that
seem to increase the risk of developing heart disease or dying from
it.
One emerging factor is a substance called C-reactive protein, or CRP.
It is a natural chemical produced in the liver and released into the
bloodstream in the presence of acute or chronic inflammation. High
levels of the chemical may explain why some people with low
cholesterol develop heart disease or why rigid adherence to a
cholesterol-lowering diet sometimes fails to prevent serious heart
problems.
In a study by researchers at Johns Hopkins, published in July in
Circulation, healthy middle-aged people with high levels of C-reactive
protein experienced less reduction in serum cholesterol and a greater
rise in triglycerides when they followed a cholesterol-lowering diet
than did a comparable group with low levels of CRP.
In the continuing Physicians' Health Study of 22,000 men, 97
apparently healthy participants suffered sudden cardiac deaths. The
only factors predictive of their fates over 17 years of study were
elevated C-reactive protein levels, Dr. Christine M. Albert of Brigham
and Women's Hospital and her Boston colleagues reported in May 2002 in
the journal Circulation.
In women, too, the C-reactive protein appears to be a better predictor
of heart attack, stroke and other signs of cardiovascular disease than
the so-called bad cholesterol, low density lipoprotein, or L.D.L.
In a study of 28,000 apparently healthy American women followed for an
average of eight years, levels of C-reactive protein were directly
related to the development of cardiovascular events like heart attacks
and strokes and more strongly predicted such problems than levels of
L.D.L. cholesterol, Dr. Paul M. Ridker and colleagues at Brigham and
Women's Hospital reported in November 2002 in The New England Journal
of Medicine.
Normally, there is no C-reactive protein in blood, but various tissue
injuries, infections and diseases are associated with its appearance,
among them rheumatoid arthritis, cancer, pneumococcal pneumonia and
heart attacks. It may also be present late in pregnancy and in women
taking oral contraceptives.
The role of C-reactive protein as a contributor to cardiovascular
disease fits nicely into the understanding that inflammation is
central to every stage of atherosclerotic disease, from the start of
plaque formation in arteries to the rupture of those plaques, which
can precipitate a heart attack or stroke.
Basic research has shown, for example, that CRP can enhance
destruction of arterial lining cells, activate adhesion molecules and
blood clotting factors and interfere with substances that increase
circulation to the heart.
Furthermore, a new study by heart and kidney specialists in South
Korea suggests that C-reactive protein is "an independent risk factor
for the development of hypertension," which in turn increases the
chances of suffering a heart attack or stroke.
In a study in Munich, cardiac patients treated with arterial stents to
improve coronary blood flow were more likely to suffer heart attacks
or die within 30 days of their insertion if they had high levels of
CRP.
According to Dr. Hackam and Dr. Anand's review of the literature,
chronic low-grade inflammation appears to underlie many, if not most,
cases of cardiovascular disease, and, they concluded, even small
increases in CRP can predict "future vascular events in apparently
healthy, asymptomatic individuals."
An analysis of 14 long-term studies indicated that compared with
people with the lowest levels of C-reactive protein, those with the
highest had twice the risk of heart attacks.
Among patients known to have atherosclerotic heart disease, those with
the highest levels of CRP were about four times more likely to
experience symptoms of impaired blood flow to the heart during a
treadmill test, indicating a direct relationship between inflammation
and a heart attack, researchers at the University of California at San
Francisco reported in Circulation last January.
"Our study supports the idea that heart disease is more of a systemic
disease rather than just a plumbing problem," said Dr. Mary S.
Beattie, the study's lead author. Based on such findings, some experts
believe that levels of C-reactive protein are better than cholesterol
levels at predicting future cardiac events. Patients can lower their
CRP levels if they lose weight, quit smoking, change their diets and
exercise more. Many drugs may also help, especially the
cholesterol-lowering statins and the antidiabetic thiazolidinediones.
Should CRP Be Measured?
C-reactive protein can be measured by a simple, inexpensive blood
test. The best results are obtained through two tests that are done at
least two weeks apart with their results averaged.
In March 2002, experts from the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention and the American Heart Association concluded that patients
deemed to be at "intermediate risk" of a heart attack, stroke or other
cardiovascular event should be tested for C-reactive protein.
Intermediate risk is defined as those with a 10 percent to 20 percent
chance of developing coronary heart disease within 10 years, based on
age, total cholesterol level, smoking status, systolic blood pressure
(the upper number) and blood level of protective H.D.L. cholesterol.
The experts recommended that those with C-reactive protein levels of 1
milligram per liter or more take aggressive action to reduce the
level.
The experts, however, do not recommend CRP testing either for those at
otherwise low risk of heart disease or for those known to be at high
risk those who already have signs of trouble, since they should
already be getting aggressive treatment.
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
arthur wouk
2003-12-27 18:53:07 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@pobox.com>, Bob <***@pobox.com> wrote:
:Rita,
:
: Not to worry too much about this one. But ...
:
: First, this was a cow, not a steer. Cows are used for milking, and
:reproduction, steers are used for beef we eat.
:
: Second, and this is the one to be concerned with, in the US grinding up
:dead cows for feed is illegal. It is cheap. So, what do you think
:happens to the carcass of the dead cow? Feed for other animals,
:including steers.
:
: Makes chick'n look real good.
:
:Bob
:

no. as reported in the papers, the meat had already entered the human
food chain in hamburger.
--
It could be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning
to others

to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
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